This episode of the Tips for Teachers podcast is proudly supported by LUMEN
You can download an mp3 of the podcast here.
Jamie Thom’s tips:
- Remember the tortoise and the hare (04:34)
- Tackle the negativity radio (15:01)
- Beware the distraction addiction (28:28)
- Hone your public speaking (45:56)
- Validate introverts (56:30)
Links and resources
- On Twitter, Jamie is: @teachgratitude1
- Jamie’s website is here: slowteaching.co.uk
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Watch the videos from Jamie Thom:
Podcast transcript:
Craig Barton 0:00
Hello, my name is Craig Barton and welcome to the tips for teachers podcast. The show that helps you supercharge your teaching one idea at a time. This episode I have the absolute pleasure of speaking to English Teacher and Author James Tom. And I know I say this all the time, but this one is absolutely brilliant. Just before we get going a quick word about our lovely sponsors because this episode of the tips of teachers podcast is proudly supported by lumen, who are lumen. Lumen is the acronym from Loughborough University Mathematics Education Network. It’s an association very close to my heart and I’m very proud to be the Visiting Fellow in the department for mathematics education. Now lumen have kindly sponsored three episodes of the Trinity teachers podcast. So each episode I’m going to tell you about one of their amazing free online CPD videos that they brought available. This week. It’s the turn of improving language using maths by my very good friend, Danny Quinn. Listen to the boy for this one. counterintuitively, children’s success with maxima mathematics is bound up with their command of language, as well as their confidence and ability to express ideas and to describe what they see and understand. Despite extensive research into the importance of language, talk and discussion in mathematics, and extensive research into literacy instruction in the English or humanities classroom, there is less understanding effective techniques and strategies in the mathematics classroom. Denta Dally, she has loads of amazing tips and approaches to help students improve their commandment is absolutely great one. Well, that’s just one video. There’s loads more videos from earliest post 16 Just Google lumen math CPD that’s out, back CBD, or follow the link in the show. Okay, two things to remind you about before we get cracking. Firstly, you can view videos of all Jamie’s tips plus the tips of my other guests. Plus over 20 exclusive video tips from me on the tip for teachers website. These are great to show in a departmental meeting or training session. And secondly, you can sign up to the tips for teachers newsletter 2000 of you have already to receive a tip in your inbox every Monday morning to try it with your classes in the coming weeks. And please tell your colleagues about this if you think they’ll find it useful. And finally, if you find this podcast useful, please just take a moment to review it on your podcast player of choice. It really does make a difference. Thanks so much. Okay, back to the show. Let’s get learning with today’s guest the wonderful Jamie Tom spoiler alert. Here are Jamie’s five tips. Tip one, remember the tortoise and the hare tip to tackle the negativity radio. Tip three beware the distraction addiction. Tip Four hone your public speaking. And Tip five validate introverts. As I said at the start is a great episode this I love listening to Jamie speak we tackle issues that I haven’t really tackled either on my Mr Barr maps podcast. All the tips for teachers one so far particularly this idea of allowing introverts to flourish is just I think it’s really really important what Jamie’s got to say. And if you look at the episode description on your podcast player or visit the episode page on tips for teachers code at UK, you’ll see f timestamp teacher the tip so you can jump straight to anyone you want to listen to first or we listen. Shut up, Craig, I hear you say okay, well do enjoy the show.
Well, it gives me great pleasure to welcome Jamie Tom to the tips for teachers podcast. Hello, Jamie. How are you?
Jamie Thom 3:40
Hi, Craig. I’m good. Thanks. How are you?
Craig Barton 3:41
Very good. Thank you. Right, Jamie? For the benefit of listeners, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself ideally in a sentence?
Jamie Thom 3:48
And okay, so I was a teacher for 12 years on England and Scotland. And in that time, I wrote a range of books about teaching. And I left the classroom three weeks ago to start a new English teacher training course here in Edinburgh.
Craig Barton 4:05
Oh, fantastic. Just as a little bonus question. Yeah. What did the time just feel wait for a bit of a change? What what brought about the decision?
Jamie Thom 4:13
Oh, good question. And yeah, I think so. I think I’m very passionate about kind of developing teachers and working with teachers, particularly new teachers. So and this opportunity came about and I thought, why not? Let’s go for it. But I’m already missing teenagers Craig so I don’t know.
Craig Barton 4:31
Sounds good. Let’s dive in. What is your first tip for the golfers today Jamie?
Jamie Thom 4:36
Okay, my first tip is based on Aesop’s fable which is the top toys on the here on it just in case listeners aren’t familiar with what that is. So obviously that is the basic the battle between the plucky determined here and the slow ponderous toys. So we’ve got our elegant here who’s kind of strutting around and challenges Is the toys to our race. And basically our argument here Sprint’s off off, it goes and stops for a little snooze. And our can slow ponderous toward toys basically wins the race. Now, at what does that have to do with teaching? I guess the to use another anecdote. When I was at the start of my teaching career, I was very much the here. So I was kind of spinning around teaching rapid pace, outstanding lesson short off, working a ludicrous amount of hours. And I worked in a very odd school, basically, which has been in the news a lot recently, and I won’t give too much away. But yeah, it’s been in the news a lot recently. And I got promoted at the end of my second year of teaching to an assistant head teacher in charge of teaching and learning in the English Department. And I kept going with Mike and a here approach, and predictably, kind of rapidly burnt out completely and utterly. And it was quite ill for a kind of period of time. And sort of in the 10 years preceding that, what I’ve tried to do is kind of reflect more on I guess, how you can apply the the slaw toward toys, philosophy, into life in the classroom. Because one of the things I’m very passionate about our guesses about how we can support teachers to ensure longevity in the classroom. And so how does that work in terms of practically for teachers, because this is a tip, a top tip. And so, so I guess the top tip, after all that rambling, I guess, is to bring the mindset into the classroom. And that mindset is about slow, incremental steps that will help you to improve. And you can apply enough stress this slow philosophy into many different aspects of teaching and learning. But you can apply this slow lens through lots of lots of stuff. And for me, I’m really interested in kind of concepts around minimalism, as well. And the whole minimalism idea is kind of stripping everything back to its bare essentials. And I think as teachers, we face a huge amount of pressure to bury quickly become expert teachers and to become kind of fantastic in the classroom. But it’s not sustainable. So my argument is, My top tip is, be slow, and enjoy the process of learning and growing as a teacher.
Craig Barton 7:42
If I like it, Jamie, I love this. It’s really good. It is something that’s come up in a conversation I had with Sonya Thompson, we were talking about progression, career progression of teachers, and certainly for a secondary math teacher. There’s a lot of pressure to really accelerate with your career, because math teachers are like gold dust. And I assume it’s the same with kind of science teachers and a lot of the other shortage subjects. So if you’re, if you’ve been around for a couple of years, as a maths teacher, you’re like, you’ve got your pick of jobs. And people are often your decent money to be second in department and head of department and it’s assistant had, and well from just from a practical level. Unless you’ve got your real kind of foundation of teaching, kind of experience and expertise under your belts comes very hard. You’ve taken on all these extra responsibilities. And your teaching isn’t quite at the level where you’d like it to be. So you can’t just turn up and deliver half decent lessons, you don’t have that experience. And it just becomes a bit of a nightmare. You end up doing none of your responsibilities. Well, you’re not teaching Well, you’re not managing your team well, and so on. And, but there’s a real pressures on the Jamie in teaching to kind of progress because it’s one of those jobs where there’s a definite kind of career ladder that opens out in front of you. And you sometimes you see your colleagues around you getting promotions, it’s, it’s hard to sometimes think no, you know what, I’m gonna focus either on my teaching or this kind of incremental changes, when there’s there’s lots of opportunities available, if that makes sense.
Jamie Thom 9:05
Yeah, it totally does. Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s, it’s really hard because, as you say, you’re kind of watching everyone else. And there’s that there’s that phrase as well that I really, really hate, which is that, you know, when you say to people, what do you do? And you go, Oh, I’m just a teacher. And you’re like, it’s mind boggling, because teaching is the best job in the world. And it’s, you know, it’s fantastically complex, and fantastically enriching. And, you know, I guess my career went fantastically backwards. So, initially, I was kind of, you know, assistant head teacher in London, you know, on a big salary Swan and around in a black suit, had to shave my head as well. It was bizarre. Anyway, don’t go to that. But, you know, I was doing all this amazing, you know, career stuff. But the happiest I was, in terms of my teaching career, as it were, it was the last two years would have been a classroom teacher on a field timetable. Just loving the process and the experience of being in my own classroom and teaching. Because actually, although you know, it’s hearkened as the, you know, the crate stuff being promoted all that sort of stuff, a lot of the real joy of working in schools is working with young people. So I think we should strip away that just the teacher forever, and actually celebrate that I’m a teacher, I’m a classroom teacher. And I’m learning how to be a bit better all the time.
Craig Barton 10:27
I like that. And the other thing I’ve just noticed down here, when I was thinking about preparing for our conversation, I know I really liked your slow philosophy. I really liked this. And it made me think about another conversation I’d have recently with Sarah Cottingham. And we were talking about teachers almost kind of being bombarded with with tips and advice and strategies and so on. And the real danger there is that, you know, you see something on Twitter and you think, Oh, God, I’m not doing that. So I bet bring that into my lesson, or you hear a podcasting or Flickr, that’s a good idea. Let’s bring that in. And it’s a similar kind of thing that you just get, you get bombarded with all these ideas, it’s overwhelming for you, you’re in a rush to try everything because you want to improve as a teacher, you want your kids to, you know, have as good an experience as possible. But it can be a bit overwhelming. And it just struck me that you’re kind of this this slow approach. And this tortoise and the hare can apply to kind of strategies within the classroom as well, just kind of doing one thing at a time, but doing that thing really well. And resisting the temptation, and it’s hard to resist it to kind of try more stuff, if that makes sense as well.
Jamie Thom 11:29
Oh, it totally does. And there’s a balance, I think, as well, because, you know, stuff like this, I think is so motivational and inspiring for teachers to come across little tips and to come across ideas and to just to reflect on what they might change and develop in their classroom. And that keeps you fueling and wanting to improve. But also, you’ve got to play the long game. Because, you know, if we’ve considered things like questioning, you could spend, you know, a year in your classroom just thinking, you know, what, this year, I’m going to get really, really good at question. And I’m going to practice it, and I’m going to get some feedback. And I’m going to do it really, really slowly. And by the end of the year, I will be significantly better at questioning. But I want to, you know, I wouldn’t have this kind of cognitive overwhelm of all this other stuff. So I think there’s a balance to be had with both. But yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. It’s, it can be very overwhelming to be a teacher in the kind of modern technology driven age as well, I think.
Craig Barton 12:30
Fantastic. And the other thing I was gonna say to you, Jamie, and this might come up in the other tips, but I’m one of these annoying people who wherever anytime they’re reading a book, it transforms my whole life I get obsessed with books are at the time, my current one I’m reading and I thought this, you’ve probably read it. But if not, I thought this would be right up your street. Have you read 4000 weeks by Oliver Bergman, have you come across this one yet? No. If I was you, I’d stop talking to me now just hang up and go read this books. It’s amazing. It’s the idea that our life is 4000 Average life is 4000 weeks long. And to avoid, kind of fall into this productivity trap and this race to get everything done and realising that you’re never gonna get everything done, you’re never going to be able to put enough attention into being a good father, being a good husband, being a good teacher being with all these kinds of you know, you try and fit everything in and it just becomes overwhelming and everything suffers. And it just struck me again that this, this notion of this, this slow approach really fits in with with with this idea. And one idea that was really kind of resonated when you when you were saying this is you want to kind of strive to the next stage in your career, but actually focusing on what you’re doing now and finding joy and pleasure in that is so so important. And the way Berkman explains it is find pleasure in the mundane. So you know, alright, I’ve got another week, I’ve got a full timetable ahead of me, it’s, you could see it as Oh, that’s the same as I made last week the same as I did last year, I want to change but actually no, if you just take joy in those moments, find joy in the smallest of things within that, then you start to really appreciate what’s going on in the moment you get better and better and better at that. And you’re not in this continual race, to kind of strive for variety to improve things. And just yeah, I really the more I read about kind of taking things slower, the more I realise what an error I’ve been making for about 15 years. But what I can start to do now to start making things better, if that makes sense.
Jamie Thom 14:25
Great. Absolutely love it. As soon as this conversation is over. I am buying that
Craig Barton 14:29
book. Oh, you’re onto it. Honestly tell me it’s it could have been written by me though, to be honest with you. I refuse your stop sign
Jamie Thom 14:36
for me until it but it’s really if you think I think we’re in similar positions where we’ve got young children. And actually, the life as a father with young children is remarkably mundane, because you’re doing the same thing over and over again. But as you say, finding the way to look at that that makes it joyful makes it energetic is such a positive way to look at the world, isn’t it? So thank you for the recommendation.
Craig Barton 15:01
Okay, JB, what is your second tip you got for us today?
Jamie Thom 15:05
Okay, tip number two is turn down the negativity radio. And my argument with this is that basically as as teachers, the kind of internal radio that we’ve got going on in our minds, is remarkably kind of insistent, it’s remarkably loads. The such a lot going on there. And it connects a little bit back to what we’ve we’ve said already about the Connect complexity of teaching, and also the sort of interpersonal demands of teaching. And also, the brutal reality is, no matter how brilliant a day you’re having, as a teacher, there will be inevitably kind of crap. Underneath that stuff. You know, there’s going to be lessons where things don’t fly as much as you want it to, there’ll be an email you’ll get from someone that will spark off that negativity radio, and then it becomes really, really difficult to switch that radio off, as it were. And you’re constantly in a loop of overthinking about things catastrophizing about things, and internal reflections. And a lot of that’s entirely natural, you know, the kind of cognitive biases that we have the evolutionary stuff, the negativity bias, we’re much more inclined to look at things through a negative lens. And the reason I think it’s essential that we kind of turn that down, to stretch this analogy pretty far, is thinking about what young people want in a classroom, and who young people want to spend time with, in a classroom. And for me, young people want people who are passionate, who are enthusiastic, who are positive. So how do we turn down that kind of negativity bias, and that negativity, radio, to give us that sense of joy? You talked about in the classroom. And I’m really interested in kind of positive psychology, you talk about books that you get lost in and kind of transformed by and I’ve gotten many book journeys done positive psychology and thinking about, you know, this kind of reinvention of psychology, obviously, was was much more concerned with that, stopping that negativity stuff. But Martin Seligman, the father of kind of positive psychology came along and wanted to reflect on how we can supercharge the positive. And, and for me, you know, how can you think more positively, and it can get a little bit cheesy, because a lot of it is this stuff, like, you know, like these gratitude practices, where you write down things you are grateful for. But for me, it’s actually really, really simple. And I’ll use the kind of how I speak to my son, so my son’s four. And the last thing I say to him every single day, is just what what was your What was your favourite thing about the day, what was the best bit of your day, and he talks for a couple of minutes about what he’s really enjoyed about the day. And then I talked for a couple of minutes about what I’ve enjoyed from the day. And, and that’s me indoctrinating him through this positive psychology lens, and it gets very upset if I forget, it’s like Daddy positives. And I think it’s actually something that as teachers, we need to be applying a little bit more of, you know, just kind of given yourself the space to think about, like, what have I done brilliantly today? Because there will be things that you’ve done brilliantly. And it might feel remarkably artificial, at first to say, you know, oh, that lesson with you Ray, was, you know, they absolutely loved it, or that conversation with that pupil, I dealt with that really, really well. And it’s not often we have that internal dialogue where we are ramping up the positive, it’s more often, as I say, inclined towards the negative. So I think you have to find a way in which it works naturally for you. Does this book I can’t remember it’s called but it’s basically the whole concept. As you see, I love you to yourself in the mirror. And it’s utterly ludicrous. Nobody could pull it off. But there’s a whole book stretched on this. But you’re thinking what can I do? To make me feel to help me feel positive about being a classroom teacher? What can I supercharge and unpack a little bit? And it’s finding people to do it with as well, you know, instead of sitting in the staff room and as all harping on about how terrible teenagers are, how can we be positive and how can we reflect on it in a positive way? If that makes it sorry, I’m rambling Craig rambling.
Craig Barton 19:52
I love I love this one. So just a couple of my personal reflection on this I’m I’m terrible for this. Jamie. I always focus on the negatives so When I was teaching full time that it would it would hit me in two different ways. So first, I would have real negative thoughts about what was coming up. So if I had a real ropey class who were particularly ropey in Thursday afternoons, I remember certainly a 10 class I used to from from almost the minute I finished teaching them on that Thursday, Thursday afternoon, I’d be dreading in seven days time when I’d have to do it all again. And it will honestly je would cloud my thoughts, I couldn’t enjoy myself the rest of this, maybe I’m enjoying myself a little bit on the front end exit felt further enough away. But as soon as Monday came along, I’ve seen not them again, it’s going to come before I know it and it would affect everything. So I preempted I was at negativity for something that was coming up. But then exactly what you said as well. If even if I had a great day, well, loads of things went well, the only thing I would focus on is a bad lesson or a bad conversation I’ve had with a colleague, and it’s terrible, isn’t it? And it seems to be a natural human disposition to focus on that. And yeah, for certain types of sometimes people I think the majority people to focus on the negative and it’s hard to break it isn’t it? It’s, it seems to happen a lot.
Jamie Thom 21:05
It is, it’s really, really tough to break it. And because you know, the best teachers are the ones who are really committed to it and want to improve on the time are total perfectionist, total perfectionist. And I think you noticed, very, very similarly when I when I eventually left my bizarre school in central London, which I’m not naming, I’ll not get political on your podcast correct. But I moved to the northeast, I went to fantastic school was brilliant. But I bought all of that stuff that I had in that kind of toxic environment. That negativity bias, that perfectionism that had supercharged, I took that with me to this new environment. And it was totally wired for the first couple of years, I couldn’t escape from that mindset of real negativity that was drilled into me, and I was getting eaten alive in the classroom as well, you sort of go from thinking you’re fantastic into a different setting, and you’re not. And I was getting eaten alive, and it was a disaster. And it was only when I sort of started to I started a blog, actually, that was very chiefly titled, teacher gratitude. And I was trying to be as explicit as possible in that blog about naming things that I was felt positive about. So my first blog was absolutely horrendous. I think two people read it, it was called the joys of English teacher. And it just listed all the things I loved about English teacher. And but very, very slowly, the more you do it, the more you incline towards the positive, the more you start to feel a bit more positive, and you bring that into your work environment. But it’s a really tough battle. And I completely appreciate that challenging thing to
Craig Barton 22:45
do. Or it is a few more things on this journey that fascinates me, me me this area. So the first thing I always think about teaching is it’s one of the jobs where kind of your success or failure is in the hands of a lot of different people how you feel throughout the day, like if you teach five lessons in a day, 30 kids in each, there’s kind of 150 people who can impact how you feel and how you feel the days gone, and so on and so forth. And a lot of that is within your control, obviously, you can do certain things to give the kids better chances of learning and feeling successful, and you know, behaviour expectations. But at the end of the day, if you’re dealing with 150 people, and those people are adolescent teenagers with hormones flying around all over the show, it’s about I think, for me anyway, it was about realising that, you know, a lot of the things are out of my control. And if something’s happened in a child’s life, or in the playground or whatever, there’s not a great deal I can do about it. And I’ve just got to be careful how that it kind of impacts on my mood and how I take responsibility for it, and so on. So that’s one thing. And the other thing is, and I’m really interested about this, this notion of kind of the gratitude and the saying that out loud versus kind of writing it down because I’ve dabbled with the journal and you hear all the top performers, they love a journal. And I’ve downloaded every journaling app on my iPad, on the phone, and so on. And a classic one will be to name three things that’s happened today that you’re grateful for three things you’re going to do tomorrow, how you’re going to be what could you have done better in the day, all these kinds of things? Do you find personally that writing it down helps more? Or do you think I really like this idea of you having this conversation with your soul? Do you think it’s important to kind of say these things out loud? What what’s worked for you in terms of making explicit how you feel about the positive things that have happened in the day, if that makes sense?
Jamie Thom 24:35
Great question. And first, just to comment on your first point about, you know, taking individual ownership of yourself in a school setting. And I think it’s a fantastic point. It’s so interesting, and it kind of relates back to the whole stoical philosophy idea. You know, this idea that you are the captain of your own ship to be very, very cheesy, and I think it’s a fantastic way for tea. Just to reflect on the how they are in the classroom, because there are so many extraneous factors that are going to influence your day and your success of your lesson. But if you go in with that mentality of your kind of vision of who you want to be, and how you want to be not in the classroom, then that’s a really empowering way to be, I think. And so just a commoner that thought was a great point. And the second one about, you know, did you write it? Do you see it? And think that again, one of the great things about kind of teachers is we’re all remarkably different, and remarkably complex human beings. And I think what works for what works for me, isn’t might not necessarily work for other people. But I think for me, a balance of two works really, really effectively. And there’s a great one, I can’t remember who will read this, but actually just the end, I suppose it’s linked to what I do, I’m a wee boy. But the last thing you do at night before you drift off into the ether is just actually, maybe internally, a couple, two, three things that you’re grateful for, or you feel positive about or that you recognise or are good about your professional world and your and your private world, isn’t it because it’s the not distinct, if you’re not happy in the private world, you don’t have in the professional world. So it’s a kind of to be very, very cheesy. And Ravel is a combination of both, isn’t it? So I think it’s finding what works for you as an individual is so important. Finding how you can supercharge that positivity in your in your life.
Craig Barton 26:36
I love and final point on this, I could talk to you about this all day, Jamie. But your last point for me, I think the other thing that I’ve come to realise is, if you’re kind of negative yourself, obviously, it’s going to make you feel bad, it’s probably going to make not be good for your kids see your pupils that you’re teaching as well, that’s going to come across. But the other thing is, particularly if you’re in a position of responsibility, it can really then spread amongst the staff, right? Like if you’re a head of department, or you’re got a responsibility in the department, you’re working closely with some less experienced teachers. And all of a sudden, you’re saying, Oh, God, that was a terrible lesson. And I’m dreading this, and we’ve got all this work to do and so on. It’s not not a good for anybody else. And it’s there’s almost kind of a responsibility as a leader to be positive, right? And to try and find the positives within the kind of mundane or the tricky situations and so on. Because you’ve got that duty to the colleagues that you’re working with who are locked in, if that makes sense.
Jamie Thom 27:31
Oh, definitely. I think it’s such an important point. Because it is like osmosis. And your leaders are so essential in terms of walking the walk in the talk, and in terms of creating the climate of a department of a school. And then it’s really, if you think of anyone who’s been your kind of role model within a school setting, the person who you’ve looked up to, they always lose that kind of that passion, that enthusiasm, that positivity for what they do and how they do it with young people. And the converse is also true. You think of anyone you think, Oh, Jesus, you know, you’re diving into the classroom to avoid, it’s because they, they drain you literally drain you. So surrounding yourself by those positive people and those positive conversations is the one of the ways in which you can become that little bit more. Positive yourself, isn’t it? We all rub off each other, I think, in that respect.
Craig Barton 28:27
Love it. Okay, Jamie, what’s tip number three for us today.
Jamie Thom 28:32
Okay, tip number three, is beware the destruction, addiction. And I’m going to be a bit tricky here, Craig, if you don’t mind, I’m going to apply this a little bit to young people, and then to adults as well. So if we take young people, and so I’ve been very lucky, obviously, in the sense that I started this new role, kind of following around my wonderful colleagues as they’re doing their final observations of new teachers. And it’s actually been a while since I’ve sat in the back of our classroom and been sort of invisible presence. And it’s just absolutely fascinating. And I’m a real kind of people watcher anyway, but actually just looking around the classroom, while someone is teaching, you just notice the scale of that attention kind of deficit, and just how much young people are looking to distract or be distracted. And, and it’s like, I suppose it’s like putting, putting you in an open plan office with all your best mates around you. And then trying to talk to you about something you might not naturally be inclined or interested in listening to. And I actually think it’s one of the biggest challenges that we face as teachers. Again, I’m gonna get political but here in Scotland, obviously, there’s a kind of fetish of giving young And people have iPads, and all that sort of stuff. So every child in the Edinburgh Council where I am, has been handed an iPad. And you know, you sitting in the back of the room and you’re watching these these magicians on this device managing to switch over to all these and then flatten them away when anyone comes near. And so I and I think you’ve had lots of brilliant people on already who’ve talked about this, by the ways to kind of harness attention, and the ways to reduce that distraction in a lesson. But again, for me, you know, we talk about books. So I’m a big Cal Newport fan. And this idea of this idea of, kind of, I guess, minimalism applied in the classroom, and minimalism of channelling attention and minimalism of even what young people have got in front of them, you know, why would they have an iPod in front of me? If they’re not, it’s not conducive, and part of the learning conversation? And why would we have a PowerPoint packed full of all this different stuff, if it’s not conducive, and adding to the learning and channelling the attention? And obviously, I’m kind of planning out this new curriculum for this teacher training year for English teachers. And I think for me, that’s going to be a massive driving force, you know, how are you managing the attention of young people in the room? And, and then to apply that to adults, I think is quite an interesting thing. Because I’ve known an open plan office. And its first couple of weeks, I was kind of like, oh, Mike, I can’t I can’t handle this. I don’t know what to do with this. And I think as adults, it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating. And as teachers, because I’ve gone from kind of, you know, that teaching full time table, two small boys, I didn’t have any time, literally no time whatsoever. I know, I’ve gone to this environment where I’ve got all this time and space. And certainly for the first few weeks, I’m totally pontificating. You know, like, I’m on Twitter, I’m all over the place, my mind is all over the place, my attention is fragmented. And it really got me thinking about actually, as an individual, how am I going to channel my attention? So that I am doing that kind of deep work that Cal Newport talks about? And how am I going to make sure I’m planning and scheduling my time, so I’m productive? And I think it’s a really healthy and helpful conversation to have with teachers, like, you know, other than the school timetable where you’re dictated by a bell? How are you scheduling the rest of that time to make sure that it’s impactful? And it’s having a positive impact on young people? Where is that time going? Is it going in places that is helpful, and healthy. And then there’s another fantastic thing which Cal Newport talks about, which is the kind of shutdown mode, where you, you know, at the end of the day, you have a time where you put everything off, you put it away? And that’s it, and you kind of walk away from it. I think that’s also a really important thing for teachers to apply. So sorry, Craig Rambo, by the way through to my two strands to it. I think,
Craig Barton 33:17
Jamie, this is what I’ve been waiting for somebody to talk to Cal Newport about for about seven years. So this is perfect. This is perfect. So I’m loving this. Right. So a couple of things, let’s Let’s split it up into the kids and the the staff because I think that’s a really useful distinction. So as you say, just there are open open offices and open classrooms. Every time I visit a school and I see an open classroom, and I just think this is a disaster waiting to happen. Obviously, it was a big trend, wasn’t it about maybe seven or eight years ago, when all new school buildings were being up, let’s have these open classrooms, because that’s what Google does, and so on. I’ve yet to see a lesson where that open plan is on anything but cause problems, because you’ve got kids looking around there’s, there’s there’s one school, I won’t name it that I’ve been doing some work in, they’ve got not just open playing classrooms, but they’ve got open play classrooms are kind of three different layers. So you can be if you’re in the middle, you can be distracted to the left or right up or down wherever you want to look. There’s distractions waiting for you. So that’s the first thing I wanted to say. iPads, right. Okay, here we go. So, yeah, the more I see of this, the more I’m convinced that any benefit is dwarfed by the potential costs. So I was in a lesson again, I won’t name the school. And I was just like you, I like sitting at the back and watching the kids more and more. I like to watch what the kids are doing versus what watch what the teacher is doing, particularly this focus on attention. So the kids all had iPads because it’s school policy that the kids have iPads in each lesson. But a lot of the teachers, they don’t say it, but I know they’re probably thinking I don’t want to have to use these iPads. And they’re almost kind of trying to shoehorn ways to use them in one way So, I’m looking around, and the teachers chatting about arithmetic sequences. You’ve got one kid who’s on Google Earth, walking through Central Park in New York, he’s having a great time on the iPad. You’ve got a mother who’s managed to get crack open some painting app, and he’s drawing like a smiley face and whatever. But my favourite, you are three lads. And I thought, well, they’re engrossed. And from the front of the room, the teachers probably thinking they’re really concentrating, the watching Top Boy on Netflix. So I don’t know, what are they managed to get that? So yeah, it’s and of course, you get all these apps to block what they’re doing. And you can track what they’re on. But I just think I would say 90% of what you can do on an iPad you can do on a mini whiteboard, without any of the extra costs and a lot of the potential benefits. So yeah, I’m, as a technology lover, for exactly the reason you say I am really really sceptical about the impact it has on attention and on learning. So just a quick ramble about iPads that but now this is what I wanted to talk to you about. Right? Okay, here we go. So just like you, I live a bit of Cal Newport, I’m a big fan of the deep work idea. I like his idea that it tends to take around like 90 minutes seems to be the optimal time to be kind of studying at a task, because you need time to kind of get into that deep focus mindset. And then you can only sustain that for so long. And I often think how long how often the kids get that opportunity and lessons to kind of, you know, go deep, it’s kind of like five minutes on this task. Well, it’s going to take you five minutes just to warm up and get that focus. And you know, How can kids get deep. But the big dilemma I’ve got is, I’ll watch classes like you do, Jamie, and I’ll then I’ll see kids who can’t concentrate exactly as you described. And often the advice I give to teachers is right, what we need to do is we need to keep switching things around. So short, sharp tasks. So let’s ask them some questions on mini whiteboards, then let’s switch to work in the box, then let’s switch to talking to partners. Because the switching helps keep them focused. But then I read Cal Newport. And I think one of that’s the exact opposite, because we’re teaching them not to focus by constantly providing this variety and switching. But it almost seems like like, Can we can we train the kids up to focus in that ways? Is school conducive to that? Or do we think? And what’s the cost of getting them to train? You know, to do it that way? How many frustrating lessons are we going to do? While we’re constantly saying, No concentrate on this concentrate on this? Or do we just say, No, we can’t do it in school. So let’s constantly do this kind of switching to make sure we get as much out of them in lessons. Now. There’s my ramble for you, Jamie, I don’t know if any of that makes sense. But what what do you what do you make
Jamie Thom 37:42
more ramble at all? Really, really interesting, really, really interesting point. So, I mean, I guess the fundamental thing is what we’re considering, and we could spend hours on this, but we’re considering, you know, about a practically how should lesson time be used? And how can that be employed to to harness and grow young people’s attention? No, we’re not going to be able to have kids, it’s in the secondary context for 60 minutes, like little mini Buddha’s, you know, kind of writing in solitary silence for the full hour. And we need to be practical about that. And I think your your advice you’re giving to teachers is obviously brilliant in the sense of, I think there needs to be a balance, yes, you need to have those periods where you are switching attention, you’re doing stuff, you’re keeping the pace going. And and it’s and it’s, you know, it’s a way to explore some of the key content in there. But then also, there needs to be periods where we are having that attentional training. And you know, if I consider, you know, I’m a bit of a running obsessive. So this is really boring. But for example, this morning, I was doing kind of mile reps when I’m running a mile as quick as I can. And then we’ll have a couple minutes of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I’m training the capacity to run a bit faster. And I think as teachers, we need to think about, right, how am I training, the capacity to manage my students attention? You know, where is that in my pedagogical toolkit? And for me, I think it’s, it’s a massively underrated thing to get kids doing little blocks of silent work. You know, it doesn’t happen often enough. And I know I’ve harped on about this for a long time. I didn’t do it well enough in my own teaching, but you know, just a 10 minute block. When it’s not silence as a punishment. It’s silence is something celebratory as Simon says, we’re going to have a good doing this for 10 minutes. This is the reason why we’re not gonna have any noise in the room. And having that conversation because I’m really keen for you to develop your skill in working individually and concentrating. And there’s almost you know, to get a bear in mind kind of pedestal about this. There’s almost like a moral responsibility, because then to talk about another Boop boop Sarah Blakemore is the teenage brain talks about actually the kind of development of the teenage brain. And they are like obsessed with instant rewards, and looking for those instant rewards. And they get it all the time outside of the classroom context, because they’ve got all these social media sites, etc. So actually thinking as teachers, right? How can I give them a kind of space, where they’re outside of all that technological battering, and they’re outside of all that peer pressure that exists and all these other things that are complex about being a young person, and instead actually given them a space to forget all that and actually just concentrate, and they love it as well. Sometimes they just love spending half an hour writing or doing something quietly. Because it must be bloody exhausting being a teenager at the moment, really, really hard. So my tiny ramble, they’re crazy, but I hope some of that is
Craig Barton 40:59
amazing, too. I wish I mentioned running sucks, talk to you about running all day. But we’ll we’ll save that for a while. But let me just make one more point about this. Let’s switch to the staff side of things. So I think he made a really interesting point here that as full time teachers or any kind of teacher a lot of our time is scheduled, we need to be at a certain place for a certain time to teach a lesson, we have to be on break duty for certain time. But maybe we do have these blocks of time, whether they’re PPE kind of protected periods, free periods, or maybe we arrive into school early or stay late. Well, we’ve got this potential block of time that we can, we can focus. And I’ll tell you a massive mistake I used to make Jamie now I wonder what you make of this. So I used to love getting into school early as early as I could, this is pre kids, obviously. So I could get a good old block of time, you know, an hour an hour and a half before anyone else is in. And I could play lessons or mark books or whatever. But inevitably what I do, the first thing I would do, I would log on to the computer, and I will check my email. And as soon as you checking email, it is game over. Because then all of a sudden, you’ve got three or four emails. And option one is you respond to them there and then and then you’ve got a problem because that’s eaten into your chunk of time, or option to what I used to do. So like okay, I’ll ignore those get on with my work and respond to them later. But it’s nagging away in your head there, it’s already taken up a bit of your attention thinking oh god, I’ve got to respond to this later. And bla bla bla bla bla. And I think again, Cal Newport writes about this right that emails are absolutely have the potential to be absolute productivity, destroyers, attention destroys and so on. And I just think, looking back at it now what I should have done and it makes so much sense is I should have called God in sat down at my desk, not going anywhere near email, certainly not cracked open Twitter, because that’s another potential for disaster, I got my block of work done. And then any free time left, that’s when I’m looking at emails. And that’s when I’m looking at Twitter, because I really like I forget who said it might have been Newport said that as soon as you respond to emails, you’re working through somebody else’s to do list, it’s not your to do list. It’s what somebody else said it could be several different people have sent me things on their to do list for you to sort out. And what happens then is you never get to chance to work through your order of priorities, you’re always kind of firefight and responding to other people’s. So teachers are very time poor, but any precious time they get well, you’ve really got to focus on what you want to do at the potential sacrifice of what others want you to do. So that again, that’s my ramble after rambling, James.
Jamie Thom 43:29
No, I love it. I love it. I think it’s so important. And I’m like, I drive my wife, from example, a wife up the wall with this because I’m a total like Luddite when it comes to any form of technology interfering with stuff. So my phone, for example, I’ve got like, no apps on there. I don’t ever put anything on my phone. The only way I can access, like Twitter, for example, is I have to log in, and I have to do it on a computer. And I’m dead strict about when I do that, you know, the times or do that. So I don’t touch it that weekend, for example, because that’s not time for that particular thing. And I And people go, Oh, you’re a total weirdo. But But ultimately, if you don’t schedule this stuff, if you don’t dictate when you’re going to do it, and how are you going to do it? It dictates you, you know, and and it’s the same with email. You know, I hated it. When I was teaching and a little email would pick up and you you kind of got you scurrying off to your laptop like a little beaver. When really the attention there should be focused on how am I teaching these young people in front of me. That’s my responsibility the moment and I think you’re absolutely right, in the sense of as teachers, we should be thinking, let’s block off, you know, there’s 30 minutes, you know, I’m just going to lock myself in a cupboard and Mark books within minutes. That’s all I’m doing. And I’m not going to let my attention go anywhere else. Because of my attention does go anywhere else. I’ll get sucked in because you can get sucked into so much as a teacher. And I’m so done like I’m good. Have this and I’m not. And that’s why I kind of was thinking through this, because I’ve moved to this new job where my time is not dictated. And now I have to go through this process again, in terms of finding the best way to, to work and be productive. And I think it’s a conversation and a journey that all teachers should be going through, how can I work best to be productive? Because then you can cut things off and focus on the other aspects of your life, which are just, which are more important, you know, like pain and say, How can I be present for my children and not be thinking about the bloody email that my head of department sent? Five o’clock? If that makes sense?
Craig Barton 45:36
It certainly does. I’ll end on this I, there’s a guy I used to work with for many years, and he refused to I don’t think even you certainly have any school based email address, but he never checked it. And his point was always if it’s important, or they’ll come and find me, and he was the happiest teacher I’ve ever known. And I thought, You know what, there’s probably the probably something probably something in that. Tip number four that you’ve got for us.
Jamie Thom 45:59
And Okay, tip number four, is hone your public speaking. So my wife works for the Scottish Government, she said, she gets paid more than me, it is much more important than me. And she gets goes to all these amazing CPD events. And she went to a CPD event last week, that was all about kind of leadership that she went to this session, and she was kind of raving about this session, about how amazing this voice coach was, and this kind of public speaker, coach. And then, and then she kind of talked me through some of the strategies and things and and in my head, all I was thinking about was, you know, teaching is fundamentally the most kind of performance profession you can ever think about. And I think I’ve nicked that from Doug lamb. I think he talks about performance profession. And but, you know, where’s our hour long, CPD session on how to actually communicate effectively in a classroom? It I’ve certainly ended in the no time I’ve been in education never had it. And actually, if we, if we come back to the point we’ve been talking about in terms of kind of managing attention, and managing an audience, and captivating an audience, a lot of it is kind of public speaking tools. And, you know, whenever I felt most energised, as a teacher, it’s when I’ve watched people that I thought were absolutely amazing. And a lot of the times they’re amazing, because they’ve got this epic toolkit of how to channel their public speaking, and how to channel the attention of an of an audience, and how to get them really, really interested in what they are doing and how they’re doing. And, and I’m always writing, so I love writing, and I’m always writing something, and I’m writing something at the moment, we just got a terrible working title, which is how to talk. So teenagers learn, it will sell tattletale, it’ll sell 1010 copies will be fantastic. If I pay for a cup of coffee, potentially, but I just find it fascinating. Because if we’re talking about those teenagers in front of us going through all that neurological development, and all these different elements that make their life’s challenging, then how we communicate in a classroom. And how we present ourselves and how we present the learning and how we can package it for them is just massively significant, and important. And I think we should be doing all this public speaking stuff. And I think we should be thinking about, you know, instead of the PowerPoint displays, instead of all that sort of stuff. How are we standing? Where are we standing? How are we communicating in a way that will motivate young people get them positive about learning, and get them hooked and interested? And the last rambley point on making this is, I’m interviewing potential kind of English teachers for this course. And I love doing it. Because, you know, one of my questions is, you know, why do you want to be a teacher? Why do you want to be an English teacher, and 99% of people who are taught to hate on officers, the hundreds of people apply for this course create hundreds, and they talk about an English teacher who’s had a profound impact on them. And when they talk about that, they don’t talk about the resources that English teacher used. They don’t talk about the the jazzy read PowerPoints. They talk about the way of being of the English teacher. They talk about how that English teacher spoke to them, and how that English teacher took them from somebody who wasn’t particularly interested in English as a subject to somebody who has fallen in love with it. And I think the more of these kind of role models of communication and teaching the more we share them and talk about them and celebrate Then, then the more we learn from them and think, and I’ve got another point actually, I at school, my experience in maths was, was was, I’m sure you hear this all the time, great, but my experience of maths was was not particularly wonderful. And it wasn’t gifted with interpersonally. adept teachers and muffs, I actually read your book. And here’s a plug for you. But I read your book on bass. And I actually got, I was genuinely excited by it. And I was genuinely invested in all the concepts you were talking about. And that’s never happened to me before. But a lot of that is about the quality of your communication through writing. But it’s the same with your podcast, a lot of it is about the way you are presenting that material to make it interesting to make you want to develop and grow in that particular area. So
I don’t know what what point I was going to make there is so yes, my very Wofully tip is we need to home and develop how we communicate in the classroom.
Craig Barton 51:04
Brilliant, right? Okay, so a few things on this journey. So firstly, thank you for for the plug there. So rest of the guests could take note of that some of the stage. That’s perfect 10 seconds. It doesn’t happen so much these days. But I remember when I first started teaching, you used to get kind of whole staff in sets where there’d be a variety of things to do. But just like you There was never any kind of voice coaching or presence coaching or anything like that, like I remember in one, I did a yoga session, and I learned to cook a chicken breast. And that was that lady was a very enjoyable day. But you know, it’s not, it’s not kind of set me up for life, in terms of the voice stuff. Now, one thing I’m interested at the moment about is this idea of teachers talking with passion, particularly for things that perhaps they themselves are not particularly passionate about. So give you an example. Like I love I genuinely love maths, I would say I love about 99% of math, but there are some bits of maths that I find it really really either boring, or hard. So a couple of examples of that there’s a thing called compound measure, I just don’t like speed, distance time, even though potentially it’s exciting, I just a summit about it annoys me. And should a lot of shapes stuff, I’m very bad at visualising things in 3d. And I find it quite hard to get passionate, because I’m pretty rubbish at doing them. But I have to find a way because it’s my duty as a teacher to enthuse my students. And I think that’s aside from kind of presence, Voice projection, and so on. being passionate coming across as passionate for something that perhaps you are not passionate about, is one of the most important things that we can do as a teacher aside from kind of subject knowledge and pedagogy and all that kind of stuff. But that’s hard, isn’t it? You always he’s always he’s acting, it’s like a real challenging part of acting to play the role of somebody who loves something that actually they don’t. But as you say, there’s there’s there’s no no training in that. Which, which brings me to my third thing, which is a question of units the worst question in the world. Jamie, did you pick up on anything from from your wife about any little kind of bits of gold dosta term that the teachers can apply to little quick fixes to get better at any of this stuff?
Jamie Thom 53:17
And, yeah, first, first of all, great point, I think, you know, considering that from the audience point of view, so our audience, you know, quite possibly might not share your potential love of much. So I’m talking about teenagers in the room here. And my audience certainly didn’t all share my profound passion of teaching poetry. But enthusiasm is infectious, you know, enthusiasm, and passion and love of your subject, all that sort of stuff is massively infectious. And I hate that, you know, an iPhone in the truck many times myself, when I start a lesson and go, I’m really sorry, guys, it’s that this isn’t going to be that exciting, you know, really, so I guess this is gonna be a wee bit bought it. And what a terrible, terrible confession to make at the start of the lesson, because you have to just go right off, I’ve gone, I’ve drifted off, I’m aware here. And then you’re fighting a battle, because you’re actually handing them a postcard that says, This is boring, you don’t need to engage as much. So that’s the only thing that’s an again, is a really personal thing. But you always have to think about the hook, you always have to think about the way you’re going to present it to make it seem meaningful and interesting, and positive for them to experience. And the second thing, what little tips did, I think for my wife? What did she say? So first of all, it was no your space. I think this is interesting from that teacher point of view. So your classroom arena, actually making sense making sure that you’ve got real ownership of it. And obviously, the lady was talking about it in terms of presenting, but it absolutely makes sense for teachers having that real in depth knowledge of your classroom space and how you use it, and how you communicate from different points of the room. Really, really important. And stand on the balls of your feet, not the back of your heels. Because if you stand in the back of your heels, your your body positioning apparently is less powerful and impactful. And then the third one was about actually just the, the way you use your voice, and the pace and the pitch. And I know I’m terrible this a harp on about slow stuff. And then I’ll be rumbling away as I’ve done in key here, the all the way through this interview, Craig, but the pace in which you present your material, and you know, the variation you’ve gotten that is going to make an impact in terms of the quality of the listening you are trying to engender in an audience. And then last one, which I’ve done terribly again, is just given that time and space for silence, you know, to let something linger, to let a point linger, to give them space to cognitively touch up. I think that’s brilliant. I’m looking for that. Look out for that. Coffee that’ll sell 1010
Craig Barton 56:07
or less, right. And I think I’m gonna have to Well, when I first started this, this podcast, I wanted to get like a voice coach. Things like even like a bit of kind of acting or something, just because for the exact same reason, it seems to be a real deficit in in kind of teacher CPD. So that’s that’s spurred me on to look for that. Yeah, that’s brilliant. Fantastic. Okay. JB fifth and final tip, please.
Jamie Thom 56:32
Okay, so my final tip, Craig is validate the introverts. And for this, I guess I’ll use another example. So if we take Billy, Billy is 14, Billy is a really, really hard working lot is a year without being in the know, year nine, year 10, and sort of sad in Scotland, and he’s a really hardworking lad. He’s doing really, really well. He’s flying, but it’s pivoting. And Billy has got obviously his kind of eight, nine different teachers. And every single one of those teachers says the Billy, Billy sister, Billy’s parents, Billy is a fantastic, boy, he’s really hard working, but he needs to contribute more. And it goes from individual to individual to individual to individual, and every single one is saying exactly the same thing about Billy. Now, if we think of Billy self efficacy as motivation, in the classroom environment, then it becomes really obvious that that’s, that’s remarkably kind of draining as an individual. And I think, and we’ve kind of touched on it a little bit here. But throughout the whole conversation, you know, schools are set up as a kind of extrovert ideal, and contribution is measured in terms of how you communicate in a classroom. And my argument is that we should really celebrate rather than belittle some of the more well, the more introverted people that exist in every single school setting, and in every single classroom, and I put cards on the table, I’m completely and utterly biassed here. Because I’m like the world’s most significant introvert, you know, I’m married to an extrovert and she will tell you exactly the same thing. But you know, an introverted itself just means to turn in. And I guess my energy sources are fun from things that are much more kind of quiet and quiet based. And fundamentally, I was Billy, in a lot of those conversations on parents evening. And so why should we celebrate the introverts in the classroom? Well, they represent lots of the qualities that we’ve talked about in terms of in this interview, you know, they work diligently, they work quietly, their attention is attuned into what’s happening in terms of the learning in the classroom. And fundamentally, once you tap into that internal potential, it can be absolutely massive. The stuff that we don’t see that’s going on inside an introverted students head is amazing. You know, for me, as an English teacher, when I read a piece of writing from someone who’s probably more introverted in my classroom, sometimes it just blows your mind, because it is remarkably powerful. And yes, the contribution in a lesson isn’t verbal. And, you know, obviously, there’s a sort of, there’s a fine line, and we’ve got a duty to kind of support them in finding that voice in a classroom setting. But how else can we celebrate that contribution that they make? And it’s fascinating with teachers as well, you know, I, in a classroom setting I’ll perform and you know, this is a kind of performance and introverted people can be very good at turning on the performance This level of their personalities, but stick me in a kind of staff room on a staff meeting, and I will literally be mute. I won’t say a word, I’ll just kind of sit there. And then I might think of a way I can contribute another point. But also we need to think about how CCPD is designed, and how we’re giving those introverted teachers and leaders voice. Um, a final point in this is fascinating, you know, someone like Doug Lomov, talks a lot about this in interviews, that he’s a total introvert. But then if you tap into that, I mean, look at what that WeMo has done for teaching across the world. Someone like Barack Obama is an introvert and look at the contribution they made. So I think we often fall into the traps. And I know I’ve done it hundreds of times before, of the extraversion domination, both in staff meetings, staff CPD, the classroom or classroom interactions. And what I what I’m kind of arguing for is that we celebrate the introverts talk about what wonderful qualities the introverts can bring in a school setting.
Craig Barton 1:01:05
I’ll tell you why, Jamie, I’m so pleased when I saw this on your list of tips, I was so pleased this was in Max, I’ve been wanting to talk to somebody about this as well. So first thing to say is I have fallen into that exact trap that you mentioned with the parents evening, where you got a quiet child and you’re almost, you’re looking for something to say. So it’s the obvious thing is the obvious thing to say, the brilliant, but they need to contribute more, but I’d never twigged that they’re going to get that same message throughout the night. And if we if we link back to one of your earlier tips, that if the kids or the parents focusing on the negativity, they could hear, you know, 10 positive things about that child, but the thing that’s going to stick is the fact that they don’t contribute. And it’s Yeah, so that is that I am making a real conscious effort. Now that’s in my head. Now, Jamie, so thank you for reminding me about that. The flip side of that, of course, is why often celebrate, let’s say you’ve got a badly behaved kid. I like yeah, they could do it concentrate more. But I’ll tell you what, they’re great at contributing in the lesson. They’re brilliant. So I’m more than happy to big up for you know, the kid never shuts up, knocking down the kid. Do you know how he says a word? So yeah, that’s terrible for me. So big slap on the wrist of that, but I’m going to sort that. But here’s the thing I wanted to talk to you about as well. So a classic mistake novice teachers make. And I’ve made this for many, many years is the classic hands on. So you ask a question. And then you encourage kids to put their hands up. And the same confident kids dominate time and time again. So we know that that’s a problem. So then what often teachers do is they move to cold call. So the idea you ask a question, or the kids think and then you you know, go around and say, John, what do you think about this, and so on, and it’s a definite improvement. But again, for some students, that is still really quite an intimidating prospect to be put on the spot to answer a question in front of your class. And this is why I think particularly with the mini whiteboard, but other what Dylan William calls tools of mass participation are really important here. Because if you ask that question, you ask every child to write it down on their mini whiteboard, then you’re taking away the pressure to have to verbalise it. And as you say, introverted students can sometimes come up with the most brilliant written explanations, however, they hold up their whiteboard, and a skilled teacher who really knows his kids could potentially just kind of notice what’s written there and just say, absolutely fantastic. And Michael, just tell us what’s on your border, and not put me on the spot and kind of slowly develop, and to kind of, you know, contribute a bit more when feels appropriate. But I think those tools of mass participation, even something like turning talk to the person next to you tell them what you think, is still probably better than putting kids on the spot to answer in front of the whole class. So one of the arguments for these tools of mass participation that I don’t think gets celebrated enough, but you’ve reminded me now to celebrate it is because they allow all kids to shine, particularly the more introverted students. So I can, that’s my ramble. But yeah, another argument potentially for mini whiteboards.
Jamie Thom 1:03:58
Not as a great argument, great, it’s a really, really good argument. And you know, what you can’t see, but to the side of me here is pages of notes that I’ve made in preparation for this, because fundamentally, I know I can’t kind of do this off the cuff. And a lot of your introverted students can’t do off the cuff. And fantastic is brilliant, you know, some extroverts can just come on here and talk for an hour and be brilliant, but, but I know I need to have notes and notes and notes and notes that I’m surreptitiously glancing all the way through to help empower and give me kind of confidence as we’re going through. And you’re absolutely right. The same exists in the classroom. And I think these tips are brilliant, the cool call stuff, but if you call call like an army sergeant, without giving young people the space and time to actually think, and that’s where I’m sorry, I can’t remember but I listened to the episode where somebody was talking about weight time. And it was fantastic. Yes, brilliant, because that weight time is important for all students, but it’s particularly important for You’re quieter, more reticent students, because they really do need that space just to think a little bit more carefully articulate in their own heads, before they can then be given the confidence to share verbally. And you’re also right in the sense that, you know, the best teachers are really sensitive about how they manage each of the individuals in their class. And it’s wonderful to watch, you know, if you’ve got an introverted student, and that teacher understands them. And instead of, you know, kind of, you know, not celebrating their qualities, they’ll give them a little bit time to write a little note. And then I’ll say, Well, yeah, I really love to hear what you’ve, you’ve, you’ve written in your thinking about there. And they do share, because we all need that, you know, we all need that space, we all need to feel empowered, and that our voice matters in a classroom setting. It’s so important because it’s such a profoundly social environment. And we all need to feel that we have, you know, really positive human qualities. And I think sometimes introverted kids just need that little bit more of a kind of verbal cuddle in a lesson than your extroverts do. And that’s part of what makes teaching so complex, but also so wonderful. Because you you can give those young people a voice and to feel like they matter in a setting.
Craig Barton 1:06:22
It’s lovely that Jamie, final thing I’ll just add on this when I was writing my first book that you can like plugged earlier on. One of the most profound things for me was Rob COEs, poor proxies for learning and this and one of the ones that really stuck out is that, you know, a noisy classroom is one where learning is taking place. And that has always been in my head. You know, if someone is walking in, if somebody walked into my room, like SLT or something like that, and the class was silent, I think, Oh, God, what are they going to think of me here? So I start talking and asking questions, and so on and so forth. But when we still weren’t any, if you read anything about either Cognitive Load Theory, or working memory limitations, or redundancy and all that kind of thing, we realised that the power of silence we’ve spoke about this in several of your tips now that the power of silent focus working environment is she is completely underrated, I think in a lot of lessons and for all students sounds beneficial, but for particularly those students who thrive upon silence, who you know, perhaps don’t perform or respond as well to either being put on the spot themselves, or dealing with kind of noise, and so on and so forth. There’s a real duty for teachers to cater for all students. And often we think about differentiation in terms of, you know, easy, medium, or hard and all that kind of stuff. But know in terms of making sure that your introverts are catered for as much as the students who, you know, are boasting to tell you things and, you know, come out of their shell. And I think a mistake I’ve made in my teaching is I always tend to favour the entrance, I was trying to tailor my lessons to giving them a voice without realising as you say that we need to celebrate the students who you know, learn and respond to it differently. So that’s my final ramble.
Jamie Thom 1:07:59
No, it’s brilliant. And I think I’ve always referred to it as kind of a call it sacred silence. And kids say, tell the ladies off again, he’s often well again, but actually, it is, in a way quite sacred. And you can make it so celebratory Oh, you know, like not obviously. But like, after seven minutes or whatever, you’re not interjecting every two minutes to see you’ve got eight minutes left, you’ve got six minutes left, you’re doing so well. But there’s actually no noise in there. And after 10 minutes, you can sit Listen, guys, that was absolutely brilliant. We’ve had 10 minutes, there’s not been a pin drop silence here. Well done. And it’s not a punishment instead. It’s just fantastic. Guys. We smashed it. We’ve done it. So yeah, I think is a really important point.
Craig Barton 1:08:41
That’s brilliant. Jeremy. Well, they they were five outstanding tips I’ve absolutely loved there. So so let me hand over to you. Well, what are we going to plug Jamie tell tell us about your books and tell us about anything else you want want listeners to check out.
Jamie Thom 1:08:53
Fantastic. Thank you, Craig. And I’ve really enjoyed talking to you. So thank you for having me on. And if you go on slow teaching dot code at UK, you will find book variations of everything that I’ve been rambling about in the past hour on there. And I would love to hear from you. So drop me a little message if you if you want to have a chat with me. So thank you, Craig. I really appreciate it.
Craig Barton 1:09:14
Amazing job. Well, this has been a brilliant conversation. Thanks so much for taking the time.
Jamie Thom 1:09:18
Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
