You can download an mp3 of the podcast here.
Mary Myatt’s tips:
- We should all be focussing on doing fewer things and greater depth (04:06)
- Focus on the concepts and the Big Ideas in our curriculum (13:03)
- We know more and remember more when we’ve heard it in a story (23:54)
- Provoke curiosity in our students (47:57)
- Ask “who is this for?” (1:00:00)
Links and resources
- On Twitter, Mary is: @MaryMyatt
- Mary’s website is: myattandco.com
- Mary’s books are:
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View the videos of Mary Myatt’s tips
Podcast transcript
Craig Barton 0:00
Hello, my name is Craig Barton and welcome to the tips for teachers podcast. The show that helps you supercharge your teaching one idea at a time. Strap yourselves in for this one because this episode I had the absolute pleasure of speaking to curriculum experts, Mary Meyers and you’re in for an absolute treat. A few quick announcements before we dive in at firstly, sponsor slots for the tips for teachers podcasts are now open. So if you want to let the world’s most interesting listeners know about your book, product or event, just drop me an email. Also just a reminder, you can do videos of all Mary’s tips or tips for teachers website. These videos are absolutely ideal to share meetings or training sessions to promote discussion. You can also sign up to the all new tips for teachers newsletter, where every Monday morning you’ll receive Scipio inbox to try out the classes will also receive a video. Podcasting since you on your journey home, over 2000 people have signed up to the newsletter get loads of great feedback for free to just hop onto the website to sign up. I’m also I’m taking bookings for face to face tips for teachers CPD sessions. I’ve done a few of these in the last month or so. I’m really enjoying super practical CPD. Basically, I outline a problem, I suggest a few tips for it, check it over to you to think what could you change to make this your classrooms have a discussion that we do another tip, it’s bang, bang, bang, loads of things, you can try out the very next day. And finally, if you find the podcast, please could you take a moment to review us on the podcast player of choice. Make a difference? Anyway, shut up. Craig, I’m here and you’re saying Okay, so back to the show. Let’s get learning with today’s guests. Spoiler alert, here are Mary’s five tips. Tip one, you should all be focusing on doing fewer things in grade two that tip to focus on the concepts and the big ideas in your curriculum. Tip three we know more and remember more when we’ve heard it in a story. Tip Four provoke curiosity in our students. And finally, Tip five we need to ask ourselves Who is this for? If you look at the episode description on your podcast player or visit the episode page on tips for teachers, you’ll see I’ve timestamps each of these tips so you can jump straight to anyone you want to listen to first. Oh, and thanks to my wonderful Patreon sponsors have splashed the cash on the right now really well. I think they’re pretty good transcripts for each podcast episode that flows like a bit like a conversation. They’re all time stamped as well. So you can quickly find the bits of the podcast that you want to listen to or read or listen to. Okay, I’ll shut up now. Enjoy the show.
Well, it gives me great pleasure to welcome Mary Maya to the tips for teachers podcast. Hello, Mary. How are you?
Mary Myatt 2:55
Oh, hello, Craig, great to be with you. And thanks for including me very well. Thank you.
Craig Barton 3:00
That’s fantastic. Right for the benefit of listeners. Mary, can you tell us a little bit about yourself ideally in a sentence?
Mary Myatt 3:07
Well, I’m an education writer, and speaker, and thinker. And I’m mostly focused on the curriculum.
Craig Barton 3:17
Fantastic. Well, let’s dive straight in. What’s the first tip you’ve got for us today?
Mary Myatt 3:23
Well, my first tip is that we should all be focusing on doing fewer things in greater depth.
Craig Barton 3:31
I like it. Tell me more about this?
Mary Myatt 3:35
Well, I think that as a sector, we’re inclined to add more and more to our schedules, to our curriculum to our resources. And the reason for that is because we are a very dedicated diligent group of professionals who want the best for our pupils and students. And what I’m arguing is, is that we need to be Morrow conduit in what we’re doing stripping it back to the things that are really adding value. And there’s quite a lot of work around this Pareto the 8020 rule. So 80% of impact and outcomes across multiple sectors come from about 20% of input, and it’s not precise, but it’s just like, there are some things that are adding real value. Let’s focus on those and let’s strip out the stuff that is a bit redundant, a bit dusty, and just we’ve always done it this way. And I think this is system wide, but I also think it is personal personal responsibility to do this as well. Otherwise, we’re all going to keel over.
Craig Barton 4:47
Right, let’s dig into this a bit. What I love I love this marriage, a really, really strong opening tip this I know you’re obviously an expert on on all things curriculum, and I can only speak from my narrow little maths bubble. I get the feeling or the subjects reclaims around two full like ours, would that be fair, others some kind of worse offenders than others?
Mary Myatt 5:06
Yeah, so, I mean, there’s a, there’s a lot in the national curriculum for English and maths. And that’s understandable. Because those are kind of foundational for, you know, a successful life in all sorts of measures, not just financially, but in terms of being able to grapple with the world and all sorts of measures. Beyond that, apart from history, which has got a lot in it. And that’s because Michael Gove got his mitts on it, you know, the rest of the national curriculum is actually manageable. In my view, and where we think there is too much, you know, there are some things we can do to make sure that what we are teaching children has the greatest impact. And so that’s why we have to be very intentional about what it is we’re planning, to teach to make sure that it has the greatest impact that comes back to your things in greater depth as well. But my view is, there is a lot, there is a lot to be addressed. If I’m going to pick up on a on this for a later, tip on my next tip, which is around identifying the concepts and the big ideas and making sure they are secure. That’s one of the ways to make it manageable.
Craig Barton 6:28
Fantastic. Can I just ask you, Mary, as a maths teacher, one thing that annoys me is that we’ve got this key stage three statutory guidance, so things that legally kind of have to be covered in in key stage three. And it’s ridiculous. It’s so jam packed. So you get like trigonometry has to be in there. And there’s no need for it to be in there and stuff. What when you’ve got like this kind of enforced jump out curriculum, is there anything kind of teachers can do you see this in English? And math? Do you see any good practices about because it’s hard sometimes to go into depth when you’ve got so much so much to cover?
Mary Myatt 7:00
Right, so Dylan Williams, really good on this. And he talks about, you know, we need to look at it through the lens of what do our pupils and students need to know. So, you know, at a very basic level, things like supervising absolutely having number bonds and times tables completely under their belt. And then, by contrast, need to know, so this need to know, and need to know. And so he would put in that need to know, you know, Roman numerals. And, and the benchmark for deciding whether it’s need to know as opposed to need to know is asking ourselves, is this fundamental for pupils, future learning, and their future success in life? And so we need to focus on those. And the rest is kind of neat to know. So nobody’s going to die if not taught about the Roman numerals, for instance. And so, yeah, that I mean, there is a lot in the English and the math and also the science. But then they also have more time as well. In the in timetabling generally.
Craig Barton 8:18
That’s true. That’s true. The other thing I say, I’ve got tonnes to ask you about this actually marry everything you say. Just don’t you’re not below more questions here. One thing you often see in math schemes work. And I’m interested whether this is true across all the subjects and what your view is, is you’ll get the year seven scheme of work will look quite similar to the year eights and scheme of work, which will also look quite similar to year nine. And the logic being that we need to expose students to these these ideas time and time again, because we know students forget them and so on. But what you get is you never get that depth in year seven, it’s kind of Let’s rush through it. Because we know we’re going to revisit in year eight, and we’re going to revisit in year nine? What’s the arguments against that? Because it’s quite hard sometimes to convince teachers that actually no, let’s spend a lot more time on this in year seven, we’re not going to have sufficient time to revisit it in as much detail in year eight or nine. But going deeper earlier is a better idea. What What’s the argument to support that theory?
Mary Myatt 9:12
Yeah, so I think there’s a lens to be considered before year seven, and that is knowing what they’d been taught up until the end of year six. And so what I quite often see is, pupils being taught stuff that as though it was a new thing that they’d actually been taught in year four. Now, it is fine to teach them stuff. In year four, if we have identified there is still some gaps, or we’re doing it intentionally because we want to make sure it’s really secure. That is absolutely fine in a retrieval practice lens kind of thing. But quite often this material is being taught so they’ve never come across it before. So this is a patronising to the children. And you know and then we wonder why why they get Oh no, the whole Key Stage Three wastage is, you know and celebrate this work of 2015. This is a real this is a realistic in terms of content being repeated, there is an argument for that I can see that where you are revisiting where you’re revisiting stuff that’s been taught before. Because again, that is important. However, it, this is why we’ve got to be really intentional about what we’re doing. Those later years in year eight, and nine, should really be quite light touch building on what happened in year seven. So again, this comes back to a few things in greater depth. Let’s get this really secure in year seven, so that when they’re in eight and nine, it’s not just being skimmed, like it was in year seven, it’s actually just revisiting to consolidate as opposed to reteaching, because they hadn’t got it properly the first time. So I think there’s a subtle but important distinction there.
Craig Barton 11:00
That makes perfect sense. So just just to others on this tip, Mary? Yeah, we’ve obviously talked about curriculum. And I assume that this also applies kind of at a general school level, and also maybe for an individual teacher making decisions in lessons. So how do you see that playing out this idea of doing fewer things in greater depth,
Mary Myatt 11:19
yet beyond us as individuals, I think that there’s quite often across the sector kind of scatter gun approach to the bright, shiny new things, some of which might be worthwhile, but not taking the time to really consider whether they’re appropriate for this setting. And for me, as an individual for my classes. And so I’m going to adopt and trial something either as a school or as an individual. I’m going to be very measured about it. And I’m also going to think what am I going to stop doing in order to do this thing really well. And again, Dylan, William is really good on this, you know, what’s already good that we might have to stop doing it or do something that’s got more promise. I’m paraphrasing, but it’s both systems and at individual level as well.
Craig Barton 12:17
Fantastic. All right, Mary, what’s Tip number two, please?
Mary Myatt 12:23
Well, you think I plan action. I had planned it, of course. But my second tip is, is focusing on the concepts and the big ideas, and it does link to fewer things in greater depth, I now realised as I’m talking to you about it, but um, so when we’re thinking about teachings, stuff to kids, that we want them to know, understand and be able to do something with. We’ve got a lot of evidence, I suppose common sense. But it’s also from the research as well that we know more and understand more if we understand the concepts of the big ideas behind what we’re learning. Now. This is really helpful when we’re thinking about teaching a curriculum. Because the concepts and the big ideas are like the boulders that children are going to encounter across their time in education, would argue from three to 19, the big ideas, assuming they’re going to still study it at 19. But you know that the point is, they’re there all the way through. So things like in history, democracy would be a big idea. They’re going to encounter that in lots and lots of different spaces. Migration in geography, and so identifying the concepts and the big ideas, a one route into doing fewer things in greater depth. The reason for this is that, apart from it being intuitive, is there’s a lot of research and Dan Willingham and Steven Pinker amongst others, show that knowledge news, they’re like holding baskets that contain a lot of information. So if I understand a concept or a big idea, it means new knowledge linked to that concept or idea is going to be much stickier. So a quick example from my own field, which was religious education. If I’m teaching Santa’s unit up a Key Stage Two or lower key stage three, about Judaism and we’re learning about the commandments that the Jewish community expected to take account of.
If my pupils and students have not been taught about and understand the underlying concept or big idea there, which is the covenant, the deal or the agreement or the contract between God and the Jewish people, it means those six hunt written 13 commandments or mitzvah that they’ve somehow got to take account of is just like random stuff that Jewish people have gotten to. And so if they understand the covenant, it all makes sense it links together. And then if later on, we’re learning, saying Christianity and Jesus referring himself to as the new covenant that only makes sense if you understand what the original covenant was, in the Jewish context, because Jesus was Jewish. So there’s huge resonance when we identify those concepts and big ideas. And the great thing is, there’s plenty of them, but there aren’t too many. And it’s my job as a teacher to identify those and with others, when we’re doing curriculum planning, and see how they plot across across the years. So what would that look like in history, for example, if we’re taking the big idea of democracy? Well, in Key Stage Two pupils are taught about Ancient Greece, and I would argue, is not a proper unit, unless you’ve got democracy in there. It’s not just making Greek sandals. That’s not, that’s not history. That’s a sign technology, if it’s even that, anyway. So you know, democracy so. And then later on when they’re studying another aspect of history, either Key Stage Two or key stage three, say, for example, Magna Carta, that’s got that’s got democracy underpinning it as well. And so we’ve got an opportunity there for children be able to enhance our understanding of democracy similar to and different from what we learned before. And then it can spill out into citizenship, you know, when we’re talking about the elections, and all that sort of stuff. And so the big ideas are kind of the building blocks, really, I’m arguing of a curriculum. Steven Pinker goes so far to say that you’re unless we have concepts and big ideas, we’re learning new stuff. It’s just like unlinked pages on the web, they might as well not exist. So again, this links back to fewer things in greater depth, because instead of just chucking masses of material at children, what I call the curse of content coverage, Jackson Pollock in the curriculum, I’m hoping some of its going to stick, I’m going to be very intentional about those big ideas, because that’s what’s going to be really stick. And also, they’re really juicy. They’re really interesting. Now, of course, that then takes us into vocabulary, because a lot of those, a lot of those concepts are tier three vocabulary and vocabulary important. But the tier three vocabulary is distinctive in that it’s Jen, it’s the gateway into the individual disciplines. Sometimes they cross over. So you have some similarities across science and geography, for instance. But for the most part, they open the treasures, they’re the jewels of the curriculum, which is why we need to pay attention to them, learn a lot about them get into the etymology of them. And so yeah, so the concepts and the big ideas are a very exciting place. Both of us I think, as teachers, but then for our pupils, and students as well.
Craig Barton 18:13
I love this, I love this, Mary. And for I mean, I’m fairly sad, I’m reading research, when I can get my hands on it, and I came across them a big list, I think I’m about 19 of these big ideas for maths because I often think my math doesn’t quite fit into this, but you have like, the big idea of equivalents in maths. And so there’s loads of these. And so my question to you is, what what is the most practical way to use these? Is it the case that you’d let’s say, you’re introducing a new concept? Do you say to students, okay, look, before we learn this new thing? Here’s the big idea that it links to that we’ve encountered in the past. Now, let’s go deep into this new concept, and then kind of zoom back out again, and kind of reflect on it. How does it play out best in in terms of planning and in the classroom making the most of these big ideas?
Mary Myatt 18:58
Yeah, that’s a really important and interesting question. And I think it speaks to the inspection question. I don’t normally like reference inspections. But it seems to me this latest framework is pretty sensible. And some of the questions being asked are also pretty sensible, as well. And so there’s quite often the question why, why are we teaching this? Why now? And that gets us into? Well, if the answer then is one of two things. I’m teaching this for the first time, because my pupils have not encountered this before. That I’m very conscious, it’s going to be built on later. But quite often, what we are teaching them is building on what they’ve learned before. And so that’s why it’s important to have a you know, an idea of what what what their, what the curriculum looks like it the headlines of it, you know, ideally across three to 19 doesn’t need to be in detail but For instance, in primary, when children are learning about how the Earth changes, you know, lots of changes, due to the geomorphology of, of geography. Well, in early years, they might have done quite a lot of work on pebbles and puddles and stuff changing and sand all the rest of it. In Key Stage One, they might have done some work, you know, looking down into the centre of the Earth, through a lovely book, street beneath my feet, something like that. And then in Key Stage Two, you know, how, how rocks and things have changed over time, through something like a pebble in my pocket. So, you know, when we’re thinking about, when we’re actually teaching this, we can say to children, you will have learned about some of this before or I’m teaching you this for the first time. It’s like cancer, we’ve now got to be careful, because some kids know some of this stuff outside, in any case, some patients for the first time, and this is what we’re going to be learning about. But, you know, at the heart of, you know, formative assessment, informing, I’m going to do next, just checking in with a light touch wherever the children learn anything about this already, some can build conversation around that. So yes, it’s like you’ve, you’ve met this before, or this is a new thing. And then the headlines of where it might go next. Doesn’t mean I’ve got to be a curriculum expert, in phases that I’m not currently teaching that we’re doing this big idea stuff is, it’s really just headline stuff. So I hope that helps.
Craig Barton 21:38
Yeah, that’s absolutely fascinating. And just just one final reflection on for me on this. You see this with mathematical problem solving quite a lot when when problems. So students says, you know, we all teachers or my thesis want to get kids good at problem solving. And one way I’ve done it in the past is you just give kids a load of problems to solve, but the thing is that they can’t see the connections. Whereas within problem solving, you have these big ideas, like a good strategy is to take a complicated problem and reduce it to a simpler problem. Another problem solving strategy is to look and try and kind of generalise you’ve got your specific solution, try and generalise it. And if you can make explicit these connections, and I think this is where I’ve gone wrong, it’s it’s not these are two completely disconnected problems. But they’re not connected necessarily by topic, but they are connected by this big idea that underlines them. And I think I’ve certainly been guilty of not making that explicit enough to students, because it’s quite obvious to us maybe, you know, we can see these connections. But but really, it seems to me that the making explicit as an important part of this memory.
Mary Myatt 22:38
Yes, I couldn’t agree more. And, you know, and we’ve all done, it made assumptions that children will get what those connections are. And that’s where we have to continue to move from the expert to the novice lens. You know, we’re all relative experts, there was a complete expert, but as, as the expert in the room, I’ve got to continually remind myself, what’s it like to encounter some of this for the first time, and then then it becomes natural. But it’s hard because a lot of this has gone into our DNA. It’s just natural for us as adults. Yeah. But we’ve been like doing it for quite a long time. And our pupils and students both have done
Craig Barton 23:15
fast. Fantastic. Okay, Mary was tip number three, please.
Mary Myatt 23:21
Well, it actually links again, to your question about how to introduce this to children so that it makes sense for them. And I’m going to draw again, on the research, which by the way, you know, we just treat as Best Bets. To quote Dylan William, again, I think it’s the third time in this session, St. Dylan, but I think it’s appropriate because, you know, he is a genius. And so the notion that we want children, knowing more remembering more and being able to do more, let us draw on some of the research, take it in the spirit of Best Bets, rather than it being a three line whip, because this is one of the issues. legacy issues still in the sector. I’m digressing a bit now, I’ve things like the strategies, you know, the national strategies, you’re probably too you are too young to remember them. Not probably you are too young. I wish and, you know, there’s some great stuff in there. But there was also stuff that was bit naff as well. So you could just chuck that out. Like I used to talk to colleagues and say, you know, why are you doing that now? Well, it’s the next page on the national strategy documents hang on a minute. They are strategies they’re not statutory. Anyway legacy of that kind of stuff. And I took notice there was some good stuff in there is that we are directed to do to do is a kind of three line way and there’s no doubt about it. You know, they did raise standards. Certainly I noticed that when children coming up having He had the literacy and numeracy strategy when I was in secondary school, you could see the difference. Anyway, that became a bit of a, I do this, I’m going to have my head chopped off. It sounds like we are professionals who use them judiciously. Anyway, I think a legacy of that is that quite a lot of what is published people think it’s written in stone, you know, we’ve got to know, our professional judgement. So this next insight then from cognitive science, and the psychology is that we know more and remember more when we’ve heard it in a story. That is just my next tip. And, yeah, I mean, Comey, did we need the research to tell us this is why don’t we, I think it’s worth emphasising, because while a lot of these insights, they might be common sense, they’re not yet common practice, which is why I think we need to really spell out why they are so helpful. And again, Willingham and pinker and others. You know, we know Monge, remember more if you’ve heard it in historic now, when Williams talking about story doesn’t just mean novels, and fairy tales, and poems. It’s also visual stories, we read visuals. But it’s any text with a narrative element to it, we’re going to know more and remember more if you’ve heard it in the narrative text. And again, pink is saying unless you’ve got some form of narrative in the stuff you’re learning, it’s just not unlike pages on the web, they might as well not exist. So I think this is a huge opportunity. When we’re thinking about the curriculum. When we want children to know more, remember more, do more. We find a high quality narrative to underpin that, particularly when we’re introducing new stuff. Now I’ve got some examples in a moment. So the second thing to say in relation to that is that we know standards rise if pupils are exposed to a lot of high quality text, if they’re read too. So a combination of that means that if I’m introducing either the background so Christine counsels hinterland really, really important because we’ve got the background there new knowledge is much stickier. Or I want to dig in deep and get my job is to find a high quality text that is going to open up that territory that that we can then dig deeper. So quick example from science yes six programme of study talks about children being taught about the theory of evolution. Now I can either download a tonne resources from poor quality websites. Or using this insight, I can teach my children about the theory of evolution through using high quality text, such as Sabine or a day birth, Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species.
A number of things are going to happen now. One is, if I choose the right text, and I have some criteria for the right text, there’s not any text will do. The visuals have got to be exquisite. And that is because I think too much of what lands on children’s desks is poor quality. My children deserve the best, my pupils and students deserve the best quality materials I can offer them. So the next thing is to think carefully about the tone. Because quite a lot of the materials patronise pupils, or they try and jazz it up. And what I’m looking for is a tone that treats them as though they’re intelligent human beings. And the third criterion for any text that I’m selecting is that they you’ve got this lovely rich vocabulary, conceptual vocabulary that links back to the concepts. So in this example, so being a diver, Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species, the images are beautiful. The text is exquisite. And you’ve got this lovely rich vocabulary like geological record, extinct species sediment this is all the stuff I want my kids to know. And it’s there within the text. And I’m going to pull some of that out the most important ones pop them on a knowledge organiser and use those carefully. Now the this is a transformational way of Taking pupils in that’s just one example to that element of the curriculum that I want them to be able to know more remember, won’t be able to do more. It doesn’t apply to every part of the curriculum, because for instance, in geography, I’m also going to want them to be out with their compasses and maps and iOS maps and that sort of thing. But it’s those parts of the curriculum, which is the bulk of the curriculum, well, not children no more remember that and understand that background selecting a high quality text is what I’m arguing for. So things like Yeovil Harar, is SAP Ian’s, for extracts from for science, yes, I’m gonna I’m gonna teach old texts, and it’s going to pull some of it out in history. Gone breaks little history, brief, brief history. And that, you know, gun bricks work was written for undergraduates as a primer before they started their university courses. But I’ve used it for planning in year eight, and I was talking to a colleague, during lockdown, they used it in year five, because what happens with really high quality texts is you written in a way that can go cross phases and ages, people who really know their stuff. speak and write in a way that is really accessible without dumbing down. So also in science, you’ve got Richard Feynman, six brief lessons in physics, you’ve got Karla valleys, international bestseller also on physics people who really are able to convey it in a way that takes you into this territory. And so I’d be interested in your views on this the one place where I say, I think this is hard to do with mathematics. And the reason for that is because we’ve only got so much time we have, we want to get all this stuff in really deep, we want children to be fluent, we want, you know, got to think wisely about our time. But nevertheless, I think there are opportunities to unpick this in say, for homework in primary, I think there’s can be some nice topics, topic work coming out of it. So for instance, you know, how many of our children I speak to so many kids that Key Stage Three said they don’t like math, which is such a crying shame. I said, Well, what in particular are you struggling with? And it tends to be algebra? I say, Well, why are you learning algebra? And so they don’t know for the test? And I say, Have you asked your teachers about why you’re learning algebra? If they have? For the most part, teachers have told them it’s for the test? I just don’t think that’s good enough. Of course, the test simple, but we’re on a bigger journey than that. So why is it important? Where does it where does the word come from?
How, how is the bigger thing fitting into what we do? And I’m just going to set that for homework. And so you know, we’ve got lots of opportunities for taking children into this because they do need to know the why of the bigger picture, even if I haven’t got time to do it in class. Similarly, in primary talk to children about, you know, what an isosceles triangle is, and for the most part, they can tell you, but it’s like, do they know where the word isosceles comes from? That it’s just such a shame that they don’t, because if they knew it came from the Greeks, but no, you know, I sauce is equal and scalars is legs. They’ve got bigger mental picture of what it is. But it also scales them up. When they bump into it by symmetric and other parts of the curriculum. It’s got something to do with equal. And a fundamental one, how many of our kids know where zero comes from? It’s like, this beautiful, big, exquisite idea. And when we start doing this, so for instance, PT, zero and algebra, the examples I’ve just given, oh, Fibonacci is another cracking one. Fibonacci, his life story. Brilliant. But I’m not suggesting we do that in math lessons. But then, yeah, nice little topic and Brian Murray and when I say early keys, day three as well. But um, you know, when we start talking about say, algebra, and zero, and children finding that out code for homework, it starts opening up and the cultural aspects of a curriculum, but it’s also going to affirm the children whose families have come from either the Indian from the Indian subcontinent or the Middle East, because algebra, the balancing out of unknown quantities, you know, it all starts making sense, but this didn’t arrive ready made to talk to us in our Key Stage Two and Three curriculum. This has got an ancient history. So just a few brief conversations around that I Think really good. Now I was talking about this that before half term at a multi Academy trust in the Midlands, a primary multi Academy trust, I said I wouldn’t necessarily try and shoehorn this into mathematics curriculum. I would use it as homework and I would use it maybe as a topic. Anyway, then max lead across the Taoiseach when he said no disagree. We use mathematical stories, all the way through for all the reasons that I described. So there’s me worrying that I don’t want to take them from you said, No, it’s it just deepens it. And there’s a fabulous website for you note. Mathematics through through stories is just this. There’s a lot out there. And of course, we look at popular literature. There’s massive. That’s, you know, the number devil, the man who loved only numbers, there’s huge amounts out there. And so the general public are intelligent. And I just think we drop some of this into what we offer our pupils and students as well. So that’s me on the importance of score. And the final thing saying that there’s a great paper from well, it’s referenced by Willingham, Marissa and more Paul’s work of 2012 story fIying, the science curriculum really, really fascinating. Because it was about they were the equivalent of year rates, I think, but in the States, and the pupils were learning about Marie Curie, and Galileo. And they were set. They were they were given them were split into groups, because it was research, the pupils, who had the straightforward text, information text, and then the other groups were given the same information, but in a narrative form. But texturally just as dense, difficult, demanding, etc. They remember far more, they’d heard it in a narrative thing. So what I like about this is that it’s not it’s not just be going or whimsical isn’t quite strong stuff behind this. And there’s all sorts of reasons why it’s not embedded yet in the sector, which I don’t really have time to get into. We’ll never get rid of.
Craig Barton 37:12
Well, I’ll tell you why. Strap yourself any American have tonnes of things to ask you that because this is, I’ll just give you my background here. So when I am, I’ve often been a fan of stories in mass, but it was only when I read Christine counsels work on insulin that I started thinking, okay, there’s a there’s a kind of name for this. And there’s there’s almost a justification or reasoning for it. I’ve never, I’ll tell you how I do kind of hinterland in a second. But what I’m really interested is the practical use of these texts that you talk about, how would that play out in a lesson? Would it be kind of projecting up an extract on the board? Or what what what’s the most effective way to use these that you’ve seen? Yeah,
Mary Myatt 37:49
so there’s a number of ways of doing it. The the basic, lowest cost is for the teacher to have a text, show it through a visualizer or if you bought it on Amazon or Kindle and then the teacher reads it. That’s a really important thing. You know, the children are hearing this, I would also argue more than once because the tendency is then Well, we’ve read that they’ve got it No, they haven’t they need to be read more than once a few things in greater depth again, and so but then what’s happening in some secondary schools? So as I was talking to Achmed, Khattab a little while ago, science in South London, brilliant, brilliant leader, and in their school, they read a minimum of 800 words every lesson in those lessons where they want, it wants stuff going in, obviously not when they’re doing the daily model or whatever. Because, you know, they’ve, they’ve implemented this work and research and so what a lot of schools are doing, I don’t know if this is the same with Achmed, Jenny Webb is also doing a lot on this producing booklets that have got this textual stuff in their narrative text in there. And so there are lots of ways of doing it in primary. Sometimes the children have their own have their own books. But there’s cost implications to that. But that’s kind of been factored in. So there’s lots of ways to do it. I mean, only having one text is not a barrier to doing it, in my humble opinion.
Craig Barton 39:30
I agree. I agree. Well, this is interesting. So what what I’ve always done with this Mary is, is kind of used it as almost kind of a bit of storytime where I tell a story, and I’ll have images that are available. But so I’ll give you an example. So recently, I was in a school and we were doing a model lesson on averages and averages a facet especially the mean is fascinating because it’s got a real rich history that I had no idea of like Pythagoras gets involved in the mean early doors, and then there’s this whole thing about when cargo ships used to go off on voyages, if they got if they get sunk, you’ve got to work out what the investors have got to pay as a proportion of their investment. And this gets this idea of equal distribution and so on is fascinating thing. But this is all something that I’ve said to the kid, almost like kind of, right. It’s storytime now, and I enjoy it. Because I don’t have to be as concerned about being kind of concise and precise with my language. I’m not doing check from the standards were many white, but all that kind of thing. It’s for me, it’s very distinct from them. When I say okay, right, now, I need you to fully concentrate, because I’m going to do the explanation or, you know, model the procedure and so on. So for me, it’s distinct from the kind of explaining part, would that be true in other subjects? And would you also almost have this kind of a bit more kind of free and easy approach to it where this is, you know, almost kind of sit back and enjoy. Alright, now we’ve got to really concentrate because now I’m doing that the so called Teaching part, does that ring true at all?
Mary Myatt 40:54
Yeah, it does. And I think I think that can that can also lead to people taking it less seriously than it should?
Craig Barton 41:07
Yes, yes. So
Mary Myatt 41:08
this is an it’s it’s always lovely that you’re talking about it. And this has been a special moment with them. And then we’re getting into their heavy duty. As part of teaching. This is as much heavy duty as the other stuff, I would argue. And so this is one of the reasons why I don’t think it’s embedded yet in schools, because we’ve all had that moment. And I’m sure you can think of one where we’re reading aloud to a class. Or we’re telling them a story. And something happens to the atmosphere. Doesn’t happen every time. But we recognise that don’t wait what Claire Seeley. Now in leading school improvement in gardens, it’s what she calls the collective cover. We know that definitely. Not that is wonderful, but easy with that is we think it’s enjoyable, therefore, we think it can’t be work. It is work. So I think we want to nail this, this is a serious academic discipline thing that we are doing. It happens to be enjoyable. Okay, great. The other barrier is, is that if I’m underpinning a new unit of work with a high quality text, how much time have I spent preparing for this, these lessons, I found a high quality text because my leaders have given me the time because they take this seriously that I’ve got the time to find this high quality text. And and I might have identified half a dozen words that I want to pre teach in the spirit of Isabel Beck’s and others bringing words to life just to make sure everyone can access it. And but it’s not taking me that long. What I’ve not done is work till midnight, preparing half a dozen differentiated kind of worksheets that are going to widen gaps. So again, comes back to fewer things and greater depths. Because, you know, we’re inclined to think the more I prepare, the harder I work, the better my kids are going to do. Goes back to the Jackson Pollock King stuff, actually do staff really thoughtfully and carefully and with intent, kids are going to get a better deal, and does what we’re describing. And it’s less work for me. It’s not my do it. It’s the consequence of working in this more thoughtful way. And then the final reason why I think it’s not taken as seriously so you get this. Oh, we’re just reading. It’s like meat. Just reading is it? As Andy Harvey says, Let the text be the beating heart of the lesson doesn’t need to agree. But the final thing I think that is getting in the way of this being truly embedded is that we’re all obsessed with evidence. It’s like a lesson hasn’t happened less my kids have got something in the book. Where did that come from? Who said that we have to have a written outcome every 50 minutes or 60 minutes. Where did that come from? And so that result is we get loads of really poor quality gobbets of information in kids books I can show someone taught them something. If you look at the English National Curriculum, this applies to literacy across the curriculum, including mathematics, writings, number four, in the elements, I think that’s no coincidence of the speaking, listening, and reading. This applies to all subjects and won’t get great written outcomes. We have to have those first. You know, James, Britain said in 1970, writing floats on a sea of talk. Yeah, I cannot get great in that unless I can articulate it. So we’ve got all these barriers in place. And then the final thing in terms of evidence is if someone comes into my classroom, you know, or your classroom and you’re telling them this lovely story, and they’re coming in with their mental tick box of what a good lesson looks like, or a literal one. That still happens. What does it look as those going on? It’s like the kids aren’t doing anything. Except they are it’s just all happening internally. So there’s so much to unpack here. That these are all the reasons why it’s not yet in bedded? Well, there are some schools doing some great work around this, but it’s not yet system wide, because we’re obsessed with producing evidence for other adults as opposed to getting it right for children. So yeah, that’s my take on on the story is fantastic that, you know, you’re, you’re also using them as well, but it is, it is far more powerful than we appreciate.
Craig Barton 45:22
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. Um, so one thing I’m definitely changing now is, in my own mind, and students mind, we’re gonna take this more seriously, this is gonna be just as serious as the explanation. If you just put me one final question on this, Mary. One thing I’ve discovered since I’ve started doing this is the kids are so let’s take the average example. Two weeks later, you say to students, what, what do we do in that lesson, and they’ll be able to recite the story, there’ll be loving that Pythagoras, the loving all that the actual procedure itself, that’s not quite gotten as much because I think in maths, we did, it’s hard to do the narrative story of kind of journey through, you know, calculating a procedure. So it’s, it’s almost, there’s almost a danger, or maybe it isn’t a danger that, you know, kids have got limited attention or whatever, if they’re going to cling on to anything from that lesson, it’s probably going to be this nice, pleasant, you know, easy to digest narrative structure. Is that a concern or not?
Mary Myatt 46:12
Yes, it is. And I think you’re absolutely right to raise that. So, you know, alongside this narrative route in to the to the curriculum is some heavy duty, heavy duty spadework on the part of my pupils and students and the teacher. So what this narrative stuff is doing is taking them into the territory. But there is no getting away from the fact I need to know my times tables, I need a load them inside out back to front and upside down, I need to be able to spell beautiful. So I’m sorry, sweetie pies. Some of this is just grunt work, and we do it. But I tell you what, it’s really really deeply satisfying when we’ve nailed this. So no, the two go hand in hand. And so all that’s happening there is because the the narrative element has, has had fewer barriers to go into the long term memory for all the reasons that, you know, scientific reasons for that, it does mean that that more precise working through still with quite a lot of heavy cognitive load until they’re fluent in it still needs plenty of practice. And so yeah, the two go to absolutely go hand in hand. But my argument is, they’re more, they’re going to be more willing to do that heavy lifting, if they see the bigger reason why, and they’ve had this sort of intellectual warps around them through in through the narrative, if that makes sense.
Craig Barton 47:42
That’s fantastic. Primary wants Tip number four, please.
Mary Myatt 47:47
So tip number four, is curiosity. do just the curriculum in our school, do my lessons provoke curiosity. And again, it’s just an insight from research by Ken It’s kind of kind of common sense as well. But what I’m always trying to do is get away from a very reductive performative approach to curriculum, the teaching of the curriculum. What I’m after, is a place where I take my pupils and students to a place where they want to engage with this stuff, because it’s inherently interesting. And I think because it seems like if we frame it like that, it means that then going to there’s going to be far more buy in for the more routine stuff of memorising things. memorising stuff is actually really, really satisfying. As long as it’s broken down, you can see it making progress. So not to shy away from that, because kids like doing stuff that’s difficult, you know, we’re challenged seeking species. And so this notion of curiosity, I think, is really helpful. It doesn’t have to be in every moment in every lesson, but the extent to which we might want to ask ourselves, to what extent does that curriculum the school provoke curiosity? And to what extent do the lessons aren’t they provoking curiosity, and I’m not going to talk to this up, I’m not going to try and make that happen in every moment. But it is just a lens through which I look at my materials, particularly if it’s going to be something that’s unfamiliar, or doesn’t resonate with the backgrounds of my pupils or students. So to go back to that covenant example, in religious education, teaching Judaism, I need to think carefully about how we unpack this deal agreement contract between God and the Jewish people, possibly with some other examples, first, concrete examples to take them into that and so so they kind of get it so there is some intellectual hooks there. That’s interesting. I wonder how that relates, etc. And then I’ve got quite an an example that I just want to share with you that also links back to the to the story element is that beyond, beyond, you know, Willingham and Pinker’s and others work around, you know, the narrative elements of a text, there’s really nice piece of work that came out of Sussex University a few years ago, the foster reading research basically wasn’t a huge trial, you could critique some of it as you can critique any of it, but essentially 365 year rates across a number of schools. They read in English lessons for 12 weeks novels that are at least a year above what they’d normally be taught. radical, we read an English lessons, Goodness me. Anyway, at the end of that the reading ages for the whole cohort had gone up by an eight and a half months. For the pupils who had been identified as poor readers, you know, because they weren’t set or anything, everybody got it. It was almost double, it’s gone up by 18 months, 16 months. Now, when they talk to those pupils about had been identified as poor readers about why they got on so well. Very interesting. Their responses, they said, well, we don’t, didn’t need to, we didn’t need to know, everything, or all the vocabulary, because we could stop and ask or that teacher would talk about beforehand. But we wanted to carry on, we wanted to find out what happens next. What was going on there their curiosity have been provoked. And then when they spoke to the teachers about what they thought was going on, with those poor leaders, for the most part, they were surprised they hadn’t thought they could cope, that we’ve got lots of stuff to unpack, there’s offered children, this really rich, interesting stuff that provokes their curiosity underpinned by exquisite language opportunities to talk, then you get those kinds of results. And on the back of that work, it’s now been replicated in primary. And on the back of that I just started a website, which is free to access cost me a fortune to set it up and keep it going. But I so believe in this, that I’m doing it called the teachers collection, where we select texts, like the Sabine Redeemer.
And then I have a draft plan to show how it can work and then a draft knowledge organiser, which people can download. And so had a lot of interest to for secondary. So over time, I’ll be building into secondary for things like Yokohama, sapiens, and all the rest of it. But it’s all linked to the national curriculum to show how this can work. So it’s not just this sort of fluffy, cosy thing we read them to know stories now, this is this is areas linked to what they need to know, as, you know, within the national curriculum. So that knows that. That’s the notion of curiosity.
Craig Barton 53:07
Yeah. Fast, fast and fascinating. This marriage, just a couple of things on this. So one way this often plays out our sound like a broken record, but one way this often plays out in math is to try and find like a purpose or purpose for feel for what we’re doing. And often the go to in math is bad, because your purpose tends to be how does this apply to real life. And it’s quite tricky sometimes to find authentic contexts that operate at the same level of the math that the kids are doing that interest them. So you get like, you know, Pythagoras, so you say to kids, Imagine you’re walking along the road, and you see this ladder leaning against the wall. And you really want to know how long it isn’t allowed kids or what you’re going on about here, or you come up with something. So kind of complex, you say, Well, you know, trigonometry is used in architecture or whatever. But it’s such a high level that then the kids can’t quite relate it to what what the school level they’re doing. So what I what I do instead, if I can’t find this authentic real life context, there’s this there’s this concept and I get I’m intrigued whether you think this applies. To help with curiosity outside the maths bubble is this concept of headache versus aspirin, which the US maths educationalist done Mayor talks about. And it’s this idea that before you teach students something, so before you give them the aspirin, they’ve got to experience the headache first, they’ve got to know what life is like without this new idea. So a really basic example that I sometimes use a primary is before you teach your students how to, you know, do long multiplication, say to them, okay, here’s here’s a problem, I want you to solve 623 plus 623 plus 623, plus 602, and so on, and so on and so on. And then I can flip back and they start with trying to work it all out, and it takes a long time. And they feel like you know, a bit annoyed and then you say well, I’ve great news for you here because I’ve got this way way we can do this super quick and it’s called multiplication and so and there’s loads of examples throughout secondary that you can do this with factor As in quadratics, and so on. And I find that creating a bit of a headache is quite a nice way to pique this curiosity. And it makes them they’re much more open to this new idea that you want to teach. So I just wanted to get your reflection on that. And whether you think, Is that something you’ve seen outside of mathematics and something that that may apply or not?
Mary Myatt 55:19
I think this is beautiful. making notes on it. So yeah, that, that creating the headache, which is a kind of cognitive struggle and dissonance, and frustration, in a good way, is setting the children up. That’s deep curiosities. Africa has a slicker, more efficient way of doing this few. And so yeah, you’re, you’re provoking that you’re setting up that kind of tension. And I think that is that is absolutely terrific. And, yeah, I think there’s some examples in design and technology and art and design, etc. But I think that could be a really useful lens through which to look at other elements of the curriculum as well. Are we posing a problem? And so some of the big inquiry questions that you get across a number of lessons, say in history, or our re kind of do this as well, not in such an intense way, I think that is really clever. And I think that speaks to the particular particular space that mess inhabits. Now, I would just go back and just want to offer a few reflections on that idea that we need to make everything irrelevant. I, I think, I’m not sure that I don’t believe that’s the case, actually. And so I quite often use the quote of Einstein, that mathematics is in its way, the poetry of logical ideas. I hadn’t road tested this with the unknowns yet it’s on my agenda, right? I don’t think everything needs to be performative. In that sense, we’re gonna make, we’re gonna make use of this, you know, and I had to come to terms that really early on is, you know, as new in my career as an art teacher, you know, you got your heavyweights coming in, I don’t need to do this, I’m not gonna be a priest, or my back’s not gonna be a nun, I had to nail this really, I don’t care. It’s not, it’s not what it’s about anyway, you’re in here, we’re gonna have a really interesting time. And you’re also going to work hard. That’s it. And so this idea that everything has somehow got to be relevant, I can think can lead us down some narrow roads, which is why I think that idea of, of Einstein’s mathematics is where the petrological ideas, it’s that balancing out of this exquisite, you know, world. And, you know, there’s some great epistemological stuff that can be explored there. I think from quite a young age, it’s like, well, in any possible world, virtually any possible world, I understand that extremes is not the case turn to is always going to be called for. There are no other claims that we can make and other subjects that are as certain as there are in mathematics, and yet mathematics is highly conceptual. So so much going on there. Because everything else can be contested, and where that maths can’t I’m like, Am I making too many strong claims in mathematics?
Craig Barton 58:17
No, you’re not. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? Like Matt is often held out as this, you know, completely different subjects. And I’m always interested in where things can crossover what maths teachers can learn from other teachers and what other teachers can learn from maths teachers, but I think there are some occasions where it is distinct and that yeah, you know, certain things will work for us that perhaps Perhaps won’t work. And maybe this is one area where the differences are perhaps, perhaps too great. But yeah, you’re right. You’ve got the relevance of you’re absolutely right, Mary is some of the worst lessons I’ve ever delivered in my life. Start with a shoehorned in context and the kids. Kids don’t believe in what you say, and why are you going on about here? And then you’ve lost them? You’ve lost them straightaway.
Mary Myatt 58:56
Yeah. And then also, you know, so this stuff is important in its own right. And it’s not. And it’s going to develop to into and it’s deeply satisfying. There’s just a book, I just want to reference and I haven’t had a chance to read it, but a copy has arrived. And it’s beyond measure the Hidden History of measurement by James Vincent. And it’s absolutely fascinating. The headlines of it have actually, you know, the significance of measuring politically, commercially and I can’t wait to get stuck into it because I suspect it’s going to fulfil a lot of the stuff that we are talking about. He was on James O’Brien on LBC. And everyone was raving about it. So of course, I had to buy a copy. I’ll report back in terms of how that’s
Craig Barton 59:51
fantastic. Right, Mary, what is your fifth and final tip for us, please?
Mary Myatt 59:57
So the final one is my son gestion is that everyone, wherever they are in the sector, whether they’re an early career teacher, middle leader, learning, support senior leader asking themselves on a regular basis. Who is this for? Why are we doing why are we doing this? Not in aggressive way. But who are we doing this for? And so I have a number on the hit list for this one is marking who we marking for. We do know. And Dylan William as worked out that if you factored in teachers time in England, we spent about four and a half billion quid a year on marking. And most of it makes absolutely no difference children’s learning. I’m not saying we never mark, but it’s like we’re using whole class feedback. Are we using AI tang of tools? Are we self assessing mini whiteboards, all that sort of stuff? Complete? Not a waste of time, most of it. So marking is a big one. Who itself I’m having to put in data? Yeah, who’s it for? How far in secondary pupils are on track to meet their target? Why we got targets? He says we have to have targets? Where did they come from? I mean, why don’t we just give everyone in secondary target have a nine. They’re not going to get a nine, but more likely to get more children hitting higher grades, if I’m pitching it high. And so there’s an awful lot of stuff that just happens in systems and structures. Because we don’t often asked why often enough. And there’s a lot of muddled thinking as well. So lots of people say to me, Well, you know, we use Fisher family trust, you know, to in secondary set targets. They’re not targets sweetheart, their estimates, they don’t talk about them as their targets their estimates. And if you look at the carefully the scatter, you know, the scatter gun, the scatter graph, right, again, the graph, you know, to a child from quite a low, allegedly low starting point, if they got 20% of getting a reasonable grade, I’m going to teach them. So stop the mucking about everything at nine, I know, they’re not all going to get it but more of them are likely to and stop this nonsense of a, you know, basing targets on dodgy data, you know, just ridiculous, you know, Key Stage Two SATs and they think you know, gonna win, they’ll come back, but the last year 2019, which we have any data, you know, and then if you just look at how narrow that is, that’s mathematics. And that isn’t even writing an English is just read, just reading, reading about things and the spaghetti stuff. And Yet, You’re Going to predict on the basis of that how a child is going to do in religious education or design and technology or science. You kidding me? So we’ve got lots of stuff that we just need to ask not in a cynical way. That why why are we doing this? Who is it for? And if the answer is for another adult? Or Can’t they work it out? I’ve got I’ve got to mark, because senior leaders want to want to see it. It’s not I’m not Mark, I’m not teaching senior leaders. I’m teaching my kids. And I can tell you, Craig, I have done enough books scrutineers with senior leaders both on inspection and you know, as an invited guest in schools, I never do them on my own. And you sit down with him say and they say what are you looking for in these boxes? No, I’m looking to see if the book had been marked as a marvellous now. So what difference is that made? Or we don’t look to see if it’s made any difference? Come on. All this performative stuff? So what I’m getting at here, so this is my final tip, we ask in a nice way what you know, you know, I’m an early career teachers, you asked me to put all this data in. And it’s the same in primary as well, you know, all the skills progression complete nonsense. They’ve either got it or they haven’t yes or no. What am I doing about kids who haven’t got it? So technically, somebody who needs this what governors needed. Yeah, but why do they need it? Just keep asking why? Because they don’t because it’s dodgy dodgy data. So just
Craig Barton 1:04:24
a little this, this, I like this. I always like what we did with a bit of controversial one as well and you you’ve hit a great way to get married. It’s great this and I’m just thinking of let’s think about this, this early careers teacher because they’re the ones who are going to be like what is going on here and we know teachers leave the profession for many reasons behaviour, definitely one of them, but also workload and kind of pointless workload like like this. It’s frustrating. You’ve talked about the data, the QL, A’s, all that kind of stuff, the mark in the written feedback and so on and the targets which we know can put a ceiling on kids ambitions and so on. So So did you think it do you think it works? And did you have experience that this you know, early careers teach us the head of department? Who is this for? I can imagine the head of the department is going to say, well, SLT have kind of mandated it and then the head of department then has to think right, I’m gonna go to SLT. Do you think, is it realistic that this will play out that will lead to a lasting kind of improvement?
Mary Myatt 1:05:20
Yeah, well, we either crucify ourselves, you know, and just go along with it. Or, you know, someone can justify it to me, fine. Absolutely fine. But if they can’t, it’s just for another adult further upstream. So I think, you know, we are all professionals. And so if I’m a head of department, and my, my, you know, someone newly joined early career, asked me that, I don’t know, I think senior leaders want it, I got an obligation to go and have a chat with senior leaders, then they’re going to say, oh, governors wanted it, your white cup this morning, they need to know what standards are like, but we don’t do it through dodgy data, we do it through samples of children’s where bit of evidence tells a big story. And so yeah, there are schools that are doing this, that, you know, they are looking at samples of children’s work, primary and secondary, in line manager meetings and saying, you know, just talking through where the children are, the curriculum itself is the progression model, you don’t need this is 40, pseudo pseudo scientific stuff. And we’ve got, we’ve got billions of quid tied up in investment in MIS mis systems, which is, I think, is professionally criminal got to start, you know, cutting a load of this load of this stuff out and just asking, because, you know, I think it’s one of the most powerful things we can do is to ask in a nice way, I’m not talking about being aggressive, but um, it’s about being having a healthy professional scepticism, I’m always happy to be persuaded that I’m wrong. So I’m trying to do is power up people’s self confidence. You’re professionals. You are graduates. And, you know, get the tone, right, which I think most people do, and I’m just not sure I can do this really well, it doesn’t take much on my part to pretend to be stupid, because I am in lots of respects, it’s like, I’m just not sure. What’s going on here. Do talk me through I know exactly what’s going on, actually. But I’m gonna pretend I’m stupid. Because I am in, as I said, lots of respects, but in this one, I have thought it through pretty carefully.
Craig Barton 1:07:26
Last question, last question on this, Mary, do one thing I certainly see, I don’t wonder whether you see this and what your responses is, because evidence seems to find its way into kind of teachers practice a lot more like teachers or reference, I’m doing this it’s robbery and retrieval practice, because it’s a desirable difficulty, and so on. I often get messages on Twitter, DMS and stuff from teachers saying, I’ve been asked to do written feedback, can you? Can you show me some evidence to suggest that this is not a good idea to do? Or I’ve been asked to do targets? Can you send me some evidence that it’s not and there seems to be almost, if we can find the evidence to either support this or go against it, we can use that to arm ourselves. But um, what my sense has always been it’s a lot a lot more difficult than that. Because the you know, you can pick apart many of these research studies, a lot of them particularly something like targets, I mean, how on earth you run in there, you know, you’ve given you’ve got one group against targets one, doesn’t it, it feels quite a difficult thing to have an authentic context that matches and your experience, do you? Do you feel that? Do you often hear this that kind of when you speak to SL T, or governors or whoever they want the evidence against what they’re already doing before they change their mind? Or do you think a reasoned discussion is will be enough to convince people?
Mary Myatt 1:08:43
Yeah, in my experience, it’s a reasoned discussion. It’s like, it’s like, it’s gonna be really controversial here. But I think the sector as a whole is quite immature. And not the individuals in it. And so we’ve adopted and in about 15 years or so ago, a lot of management kind of systems and structures that were thought to be a good thing. Not notice that most of most organisations have dumped them, but we’ve still gotten to them because they feel comforting. You know, we’ve got all our debt. I tell you the number of governors and senior leaders who’ve got out their data, and I just just walked me through what this is saying. They can’t do it, Craig, can’t do it. Because it’s gobbledygook, you know? So I don’t need I don’t need to produce 1000 pieces of research because the evidence is there as we’re having the conversations. If they can convince me otherwise, it’s fine. I might just, I there might be someone with truckloads of data, I can have a conversation with they can pinpoint exactly what is going on year nine, low priority training pupils mathematics, and they can walk me through it fantastic. In Just thinking I will just wrap up with this. And I’ve been burbling on a bit, but um, I was doing an inspection of years ago in a, in a school, and it was there just before the first half term in the autumn term. So we were able to talk about, you know, the published data, have some conversations about that. But then, of course, you need to know what’s happening for children currently in school, not just the ones who’ve left. And so I was talking to the head about, you know, I was talking about the maths, actually, and you and I said, Have you got any sense of how your lope prioritising students in mathematics are doing, for instance, in year nine, he looked at me and said, All Mary, such a shame you’re in this week, because we’ve just done our data, you know, stuff, and we’re just crunching the data. I just looked at him. I said, I think, you know, of course, he knew it didn’t need the blimmin data to know, how did he know managing by walking in and out of lessons, not with a clipboard? But in a genuine spirit of just finding out what’s going on yet? Can I be of help and all that sort of stuff? You know, strong leaders know, they know what’s going on. So he didn’t need the data to? You know, that’s, that’s my point, really, that? You know, we do know, we do know, and mostly we’re putting in stuff we already know. So why are we doing it? I’m not saying we don’t talk about the published stuff, or if they’ve been doing, you know, reading tests, or, you know, external stuff, internally generated school data. It was one of the big things that got passed my mind, we’re doing it.
Craig Barton 1:11:29
Fantastic. Well, Mary, this has been absolutely brilliant. So just before we wrap up, let me hand over to you what should our listeners check out of yours? And I’ll put links to these in the show notes.
Mary Myatt 1:11:40
Oh, and I think the thing I’m really excited about at the moment, is this teachers collection. And so it’s at the moment for primary but because I talk about these texts in secondary as well. You know, people ask me if we can do this, and secondary principles are the same. But you know, that is there. So that’s the teachers collection. And then the foster reading research. We’ve got a big package of that, or Martin Co. Well, Steve Wilshaw and Rachel higgenson have helped me on this. So Steve Wilshaw has interviewed the original researchers, which is fantastic. And then Rachel higgenson, has interviewed, has interviewed Gail flexure in Cheltenham as well doing this in primary. So that’s what I’m really excited about. We’ve got masses going on with her and her leaders, the curriculum pieces of work I’m doing with John Thompson. So we’ve done secondary to primary we’ve got, we’re just planning for Sen. D, and alternative provision. And then on the back of that, John, and I have got a lot of requests for training on the curriculum. So to make it worthwhile, we’ve got a really exciting cohort based course, which we’re running. We did a beta run in June, and we’re running September, October, really intense, eight sessions over four weeks in the evenings. Really, really, really exciting piece of work. So yeah, really looking forward to that.
Craig Barton 1:13:16
Amazing, amazing. Well, I knew this would be thought provoking stuff, but you’ve blown my mind a little bit here. I’ve got a big old page full of notes here that I’m gonna have to go away and think about. Well, Mary, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us.
Mary Myatt 1:13:32
Craig, it’s been fantastic every chance to talk with you really, really great. So thank you very much for having me.