This episode of the Tips for Teachers podcast is proudly supported by Arc Maths
You can download an mp3 of the podcast here.
Tom Bennet’s tips:
- Use the school behaviour policy (02:56)
- Teach students what to do when they are stuck (08:27)
- Teach students how to behave in a supply or cover lesson (15:05)
- Teach students how to have the right equipment (20:23)
- Students need to know you are in charge of the classroom (27:48)
Links and resources
- On Twitter, Tom is @tombennett71
- Tom’s book, Running the Room, is available here
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Watch the videos of Tom’s tips
Podcast transcript
Craig Barton 0:00
Hello, my name is Craig Barton and welcome to the tips for teachers podcast. The show that helps you supercharge your teaching one idea at a time. This episode I had the pleasure of speaking to the founder of research hat and the independent behaviour advisor to the DfE Mr. Tom balance, and it’s an absolute cracker. Now just before we get going, a quick word of thanks for our lovely sponsors because this episode of the tipster teachers podcast is proudly supported by arc Max. Art matters a fantastic app designed to help your students remember all the math content and key stages three and four. It’s built around research into how memory works, specifically York’s work on the power of retrieval practice and the Spacing Effect. And showing students don’t just practice what they’ve just studied, but are regularly exposed to the content they’ve encountered days, weeks and months before. If you want to find out more simply search RT maths and mentioned my name. And remember, bass park with a C and not a cat. Okay, two things to remind you about before we get cracking with today’s episode. Firstly, you can view videos of all Tom’s tips, plus the tips of all my other guests, plus over 20 exclusive video tips from me or on the tips for teachers website. Hopefully you know by now, it’s tips for teachers.co.uk Secondly, you can sign up to the tips for teachers newsletter to receive a tip in your inbox every Monday morning to try out with classes in the coming that’s completely free, and consigned also on the website tips for teachers.co.uk. Right back to the show. So let’s get learning with today’s guest on wonderful Tom Bennett. Spoiler alert. Here are Tom’s five tips. Tip one, use the school behaviour policy to teach students what to do when they’re stuck. Tip three, teach students how to behave in a supply or cover lesson. Tip Four teach students how to have the right equipment. And finally, Tip five students need to know you are in charge of the classroom. If you look at the episode description on your podcast player or visit the episode page on tips for teachers dot code at UK, you’ll see our timestamp teacher the tips so you can jump straight to anyone you want to listen to first or read. Listen. Enjoy the show.
Well, it gives me great pleasure to welcome Mr. Tom Bennett to the tips for teachers podcast. Hello, Tom. How are you?
Tom Bennett 2:34
Nice to see you, Craig, it’s been far too long.
Craig Barton 2:37
It has it has Welcome back. Now for the listeners who aren’t aware Tom, can you tell us a bit about yourself ideally in a sentence?
Tom Bennett 2:45
My name is Tom Werner. I am the Department of Education in the UK is behaviour advisor. And I’m also the director and founder of a Reese. Ouch, Ed.
Craig Barton 2:54
Stick. Fantastic. Love it. All right, let’s dive straight in. What’s the first tip you’ve got for us
Tom Bennett 2:59
today? The first tip is I’m gonna focus on behaviour, which is you know, probably for the best. My first tip is about for new students. And I know for new teachers when it comes to school, first thing is this use the school behaviour policy. Now that doesn’t sound particularly ground shaking, it doesn’t sound like you’re gonna sit there with bullets on fire. But it’s amazing the number of people in schools who don’t know what the behaviour path is, and don’t use it. And then they kind of wonder, well, you know, I wish I wish I knew how to improve behaviour here. Because the first thing the school is going to do is say to you, did you use a school behaviour policy? Right? So the first thing to do is read the bloody thing, now not graphic. I mean, I’ve read about 500 We’re not graphing I assure you, there was no shock to us or surprise endings. But this is what the school is expecting you to do. Now, if everybody does it, then the impact of that is magnified. And while specific rules do matter, and there’s loads of rules I don’t agree with if the school is gonna rule and like no mobile phones, do it. I mean, to say confiscate it, do it. And it makes a huge impact. Because you take all that energy from everyone in the school, and it drills down like a laser into one spot. And you can cut through steel. And incidentally, there’s a kind of there’s a follow up tip from this, I hope you don’t mind if I just think the thinking, which is that if you use the school behaviour policy, and again, it sounds so simple to kind of obvious. Then if the school comes to you and says oh, the behaviour is not very good in your lessons, and you say I’m using school behaviour policy, then you’re totally entitled to say the school, what would you like me to do? And I’ll tell you what the answer is often, we’re not really sure. We’re just like you to just be better. And that then exposes if I may say so, difficulties and weaknesses and flaws of the school system that are not able to support you. Because if somebody comes up to you and says we’ve noticed you’ve been setting a lot of school consequences or something like that, some kind of really Kafka s bureaucrat wants to try to do regular hours over the call, right? You say, Oh, really? That’s interesting. So you’re, so you’re picking me up for using the school behaviour policy? What would you like me to do? And he probably wouldn’t know what to do, because he couldn’t manage the class themselves. So anyway, that’s my first top tip.
Craig Barton 5:14
I like it. So I’m just a couple of follow up questions to this, if that’s okay. And the first is, if you’re if you’re a student, teacher, or any teacher and you you read the behaviour policy, and you think, I’m not so sure about this, it’s a bit ropey this one, would you still advise following it? Because it’s consistency is more important than kind of picking or choosing so a bad behaviour policy followed by everybody’s better than a kind of piecemeal approach?
Tom Bennett 5:37
Well, this is the best. That’s a really good point. I think that if I may say, so, I think it’s so important to remember that when you’re a teacher, you’re a member of an institution, it’s an institutional hierarchy, that you know, it’s not a democracy, you’re not a private tutor, teaching the queen of Sweden’s children, you know, you work in a bloody school. And and if you start thinking, Oh, I don’t like that rule. I don’t, then then you’re undermining the rest of the school? Because the problem is, what if somebody else doesn’t like a rule that you like, right? And but my point for teachers is this. I have never worked in a school where I liked every single one of the rules, but you got to put your back into it. And the weird thing is, is that the net result is usually much more peace, Cam order and structure. Now, if the school rules are impossibly bad, like, for example, you got one of these schools that says, Give children 15 warnings before you do anything, right. I mean, I’ve seen schools, which are almost as bad as I’ve seen schools that use like seven or eight warnings, before anything happens, right? Which is basically the same for kids do as you please, you know, go up seven figures on your, it’s really is that bad, then still stick to the system. But try as much as possible with other members of staff to say to the leadership management, look, we’re using a system. And this is the result, because very often, people who design these boneheaded systems are completely oblivious to the impact that comes with these systems. They just like them, they just think they’re nice. And they’ll never have to deal with the consequences of the problem themselves. So make them aware of the consequences, and try to bring change from within the schools really that bad, just leave. I think I see just leave, it’s not that easy, but make that your long term goal, because schools that don’t know how to provide safe learning cultures for teachers don’t deserve to have any. And that’s my top tip.
Craig Barton 7:19
And positive message, I like it, no question. Final question on this tip top. So obviously, you’ve said that that kind of tweaking the behaviour policy is perhaps not a good idea to try and stick to it. What about kind of adding your own elements to it in the sense that you following everything with the school behaviour policy, but there are extra things you want to put in place within your classroom? Whether it’s just you know, an extra rule or an extra way that the kids respond? Is that something you’d advise is, is kind of adding, okay, but kind of taken away from the policy? Not?
Tom Bennett 7:52
Absolutely, you, as long as what you want to do doesn’t doesn’t clash with school behaviour policy, then you add what you like, you know, and the beauty about this is that the school behaviour policy probably doesn’t make her manage people. So for example, you might have a school policy on, you know, working on the left hand side of the corridor, the right hand side of the corridor, but there won’t be anything to school behaviour policy for an art teacher, about, you know, where to where to store your masterpieces, or how to distribute equipment at the beginning of the lesson. That’s fine. You create your own rules and norms and routines, those types of things as long as they could here with the whole school systems.
Craig Barton 8:26
Fantastic. Okay, Tom, what’s Tip number two, please?
Tom Bennett 8:31
Tip number two, okay. Number two is teach students what to do when they’re stuck. teach students what to do when they’re stuck. Now this is this is part of my more broader emphasis that we need to teach kids to behaviour that they need to use in order to be successful in school. There’s no point assuming that kids know how to what to do. There’s no point assuming that kids that are as resourceful as you’d like them to be, you know, many of them aren’t many of us aren’t. So rather than sitting there kind of touching and thinking, that stuck, teach them what to do when they’re stuck. And you’ll give them a much greater chance of doing the right thing. And I’ll give an example. Very frequently you walk into a lesson, and you’ll be teaching away. And, you know, even in the most brilliant of lessons, even in a Craig Barton lesson, for example, there may be a few kids that you haven’t gotten around to in 30 or 40 minutes, or even if your primary teacher in a morning or an afternoon. And then you look at them after about 45 minutes, you realise that they’ve done bugger all there’s nothing in their books whatsoever, or wash their hands are covered in ink. You know, and it’s always the same kids whose hands are covered in ink for some reason. The national body shop Pence was in Ruby shop. Now you look to the kidneys. Why have you done anything? Little Craig and little Craig Luke shoe with an angelic look and says I’m stuck. No. It may well be that the children was was was stuck, didn’t know what to do. And I was embarrassed to ask him as you know, that’s perfectly acceptable. If obviously, suboptimal circles Sounds automate me they just think of stuff, I don’t want to do this. And you know, I’m gonna sit out as long as I can, until somebody notices that and then really makes me do it. And even then I’ll just say, Oh, I don’t understand, and knowing full well that by that point, it will truly give them to catch up, and so on and so forth. And then maybe we’ll get to go and play with a diploma or something in the year 10. Class. So I don’t know how you typically maybe used it. So the point is, is say to them, right, see when you’re stuck, here’s what to do, and make this a really explicit part of your of your kind of welcome to the class. Not because you want to be a hard ask, but because you want them to be successful. So if you’re stuck, here’s how to get unstuck. So for instance, you might say to them something like, you know, look at your book, maybe the answers there, or look at the board, and ask yourself, you know, have I read everything in the board properly, turn to your shoulder partner and say, What’s going on here? I know you’ve been stuck here, can you help me, maybe they can assist you, maybe there’s a book, they can go and get, maybe there’s something at the wall, a poster, they’re supposed to look at whatever, there should be a process within the school room for them to do and then finally, there should be an expectation to ask for help. And if they don’t do that, then, you know, there should be some kind of pastoral discussion or even maybe perhaps even a consequential punitive discussion based on whether or not they just didn’t bother the backside. So really emphasise, here’s what you should do rather than just sit there and be stuck. And when I used to run Duke of Edinburgh courses, which for those of you listening from Katmandu is is kind of an outward bound, orienteering, hunter gatherer type Tech Tech Tech fitting session for schools, you would teach children what to do if they got lost, you would teach students what to do if a compass broke, or the phone power disastrously ran out? Or did they couldn’t get reception? You teach them how to read landmark milestones and how to navigate, you know, you would teach them how to be powerful, you would teach them how to be independent. And that’s my second tip.
Craig Barton 11:57
I like it, just just one quick follow up question time. And it might be a really bad one this, but in terms of like, teaching them what to do when they’re stuck? Well, what’s this is a really bad question. But what’s the best way to teach them? Is it like you would teach them anything else? Is it okay, when you’re stuck? Do this. And then when you see good examples of that, like, stop, because all Lucy stuck on this, but she’s done there. So well? Is it isn’t that kind of stuff? How do you kind of get them to the point where it becomes automatic that they know what to do when they’re stuck?
Tom Bennett 12:24
I mean, I guess the way I would describe this is you have to, you have to describe it to them. And then you have to get them to, to practice it. So essentially, it’s a pedagogical process. It’s like coaching, it’s like, it’s basically teaching, you know, and often say this, the teacher behaviour is teaching. And that it’s not something I mean, you can’t just, you couldn’t tell somebody how to drive a car. You couldn’t say, here’s how you drive a car, and then someone would go, I know, I know how to drive a car, if they teach them, which involves, you know, wait for it, and hope you’re sitting down for this, that you take a small, basic foundational fact or skill, and you demonstrate, and then you get them to demonstrate that back to you, you observe what they’ve done. And then you give them high quality feedback on what they’ve just done. And maybe you reteach it, or you practice or you do something differently, you move on to something else. And then you build up all those micro skills until you achieve, you know, through what is essentially a very basic mastery model, you know, you’ve achieved some kind of greater competence. And the thing is, that’s how you teach behaviours. Well, you demonstrate the behaviours, you talk a behaviours, you make it explicit, you get them to do it, you give them feedback on it, then you rinse and repeat until the sunburns called.
Craig Barton 13:31
I think that’s the single biggest mistake I’ve made with behaviour over the years. And it’s only from speaking to people like yourself and more recently at unboxer. To realise that you’ve got to teach behaviour in the same way you teach anything else. And like the one of the single biggest changes I’ve made is, after I’ve demonstrated the behaviour, include it in retrieval opportunities. So to take your tip here about what you do when you’re stuck. That’ll be for one of my start as a couple of weeks later, you know, the question, what are these fractions question to write down? What do you what do we do in this class when we’re stuck on things, because if I want kids to remember how to add fractions, as much as I want them to remember what they do when they’re stuck, I’ve got to provide retrieval opportunities for both and but I would never thought to do that with behaviour. It was just this explain what to them what to do first day in September, and they hope some miracle happens in the remember, but it doesn’t work like that.
Tom Bennett 14:18
This is essentially the curse of knowledge, you know, the curse of expertise, which, which I go back to time and time again, when it comes to educators, that if you don’t have to do something, don’t assume that if you know how to do something really well, don’t assume that someone else is as expert as you at it. And the problem is, when you read, you know, inspirational quotes from Richard Feynman or Albert Einstein or something like that, you know, you very frequently get really expert level tips about Teach stuff, and it’s just it’s not good for novices. You know, you might hear Richard Feynman someone saying something like, teach them the joy of numbers, and you go, that’s brilliant, but they can’t do number bonds. So there’s not not much bloody Joy going on there to teach them the basics and then we can get to that wonderful expert level of ascendancy that you’ve achieved.
Craig Barton 15:05
Okay, Tom, tip number three, please,
Tom Bennett 15:07
don’t number three, this is a really simple one. But again, it can fit into what I’ve said before, but it’s worth, it’s worth teasing. Many children will exist in an environment where there’ll be an unfamiliar teacher, a cover teacher, a supply teacher, and occasional teacher, a cover supervisor, or administrator, the janitor possibly might be coming in to deliver a lesson, please be very frequently people will come in and you won’t know who they are, or you won’t have a strong relationship with them. So here’s my top tip number three, teach students how to behave in a supply or cover lesson, teach them what to do before that lesson exists or happens. And it’s such a powerful tip, I mean, cover teachers will sing your praises and Valhalla for doing this. So essentially, what you do, you say to you say to students, right, I am here, right now. But tomorrow, I will not be here. So here’s how I expect you to behave when I’m not here. Now, and again, instead of just seeing a way to behave, tell them exactly what you want them to do. So for example, you might say, there’s work, I’m going to set some work, and it’s part of our syllabus, and it’s important, and you need to have done this because if you don’t do this, then you’ll have to, you’ll have to come back and command, you’ll have to come back after school and do it so all the time, you know, so it’ll be an inconvenience to them. So first of all, motivate them by saying, this matters to do it, because it’s good. And then this matters. Because if you don’t do it, you’re in trouble. Really make the expectation really ramp up the value of who’s coming in, and then see, here’s exactly what you need to do. I need to take your normal seats, I will give a seating plan to the spy teacher sticker on the wall, give it to a kid and say give the students supply feature. So assign kids rules. So I want you to give the spy teacher the seating plan, I want you to give them the cover word I want you to give them you know 200 The books and the exercise books handed the equipment handed the pens or pencils, the tabards and the trainers and so on. The point is this gifts, children expected roles, and hold them accountable for those rules. And if you like make, make one of the kids your snitch or something like that. So you know what you’re, you’re my grass. Don’t do that. But, but you know, I mean, but teach the kids, this is what I expect you to do, and what you will expect them to have achieved and so on. Otherwise, you walk into situations where you get back 25 scrappy bits of paper and three people’s books. And two people have done the work. And as a kid, you would expect to have done the work. And some kids will have just drawn, you know, caricatures of you and stuff like that. And it’s just it’s very unsatisfying experience. And the kids know that you don’t care. The kids know you’re not going to follow up the kids know that the expectations are due as you please that shall be the whole of the law. And it shouldn’t be that for teach them what to do in a supply lesson. And let the supply future know that’s going to happen. Now, obviously, this, this anticipates a situation where you know that you’re going to be away and you can tend to prep and plan for obviously, this isn’t exactly the same as how you would cope with for example, an emergency situation where you’re called away on the spot you phoned in sick and so on. But there should still be a pre taught ritual of FML we this is what happens. And you can do at the start of the year, you know, when you’re there, and embed that and remind them of it from time to time. And if they don’t do it, crucially, hold them to account for the actions of what’s not done. So right, you need come in after school do it. And kids do the math of that better very quickly and work out maybe I should just do it in the class. But supply teachers love it when you do this kind of thing. And in lots of schools supply teaching can be as I said, you know, can be 10% of the day, on average, I think it is about 10% in a day, you know, across primary and secondary. And then some skills, particularly skills, through COVID, Bubbles collapsing, and so on. This has been a substantial part of their of their school day. So teach them what to do in a cover lesson.
Craig Barton 18:43
I love this time love it. Again, not to to to well, one point and then one follow up question to this, I guess the point remains the same that we spoke about in Tip two that again, this has got to be practice, rehearsed, retrieved, and so on. So it’s not just something we say to the kids once, but it sticks. But secondly, in terms of communicating this with the supply teacher, again, this is a mistake I’ve made in the past where you just the only info the supply teacher gets is the work that’s to be completed and then they’re walking into the unknown. Would you advise kind of stating down for the supply teacher which kids do in which roles and so on? So they go in with those expectations? Or is it enough just to tell the kids?
Tom Bennett 19:18
No, I was I was consoled that as much as possible. Because normally when a supply teacher comes in at school, they are given. If they’re lucky, they’ll be given the work, if they’re lucky, on that note, which is given to them that should be an indication that you know, look for these five children and the children will be able to assist you. And if they don’t leave me some feedback. And also, finally there should be some kind of sense of where to leave feedback. Because a lot of supply teachers know full well that a lot of teachers will treat supply work as as busy work and the kids know what to do you get to raise the importance of all that by creating a system that says this still matters. And to me one of the best ways I can I can assess a school’s cultural integrity You know, the strength of his behaviour culture? Is it back in market to supply lesson as an unfamiliar observer. And if I can’t tell it’s a supply lesson, I can tell it’s a couple lessons, then that’s where I know that the school system is working running smoothly. And incidentally, what this tells me is that the kids aren’t just behaving because they have a relationship with the teacher, they have a relationship with the skill community and their own learning.
Craig Barton 20:22
Lovely. Okay, Tom. Tip number four, please.
Tom Bennett 20:26
Before is, again, this, these are some quick see me but they’re all different. But they all come from the same principle. students how to have the right equipment. No, this doesn’t sound very glamorous, but few of these things do. You know, that very little of what you might call great behaviour is glamorous or exciting or totally interesting. But some children will come into school every day with, you know, brimming with with equipment, some children, some children fetishize it, and the suitcases full of pencil cases, full of smuggle, and, you know, Transformers pens and so on. And Harry Potter robber, now that’s fine. You can you can rely on them to be the school stash. And also you can’t be the seal stash either. And there’s an interesting culture of the dependency that can sometimes create, whereby we want to learn so they need certain equipment or to do so if you don’t have it. Were then faced with the eternal teacher dilemma. What do I do, right? So kid has the Muppet kid doesn’t have a pair of glasses. But what do we do next? And there’s lots of ways you can go with this, to my mind, the least satisfactory is just give them a pen and then see nothing else about it, because they have to have a pen. Now, again, this isn’t sensitively important, or says, but it can often be the difference between them starting five minutes into the lesson versus them starting with everybody else. Are you having another kind of tireless, tiresome conversation about why don’t you have a pen and teach them exactly what they need to have, and again, that says of you just do already, but a lot of teachers don’t. And it’ll be just something buried in their school planner, that these are the, the equipment expectations, and you’ll frequently see children at the beginning of the school career, either reception year one or year seven. In the UK, you know, they’ll have the right equipment for about a week. They’re not ridiculous, nobody’s checking. And recently, and because human behaviour tends towards entropy, a base will start forgetting stuff. And if nothing happens to them, and at that point, they’ll just think, well, I don’t have enough stuff. Because next Mr. Barton is always gonna give me a pen. So why should I have to bring in stuff, which means it makes most of it ends up giving me all this pain. And eventually, it gets to the disaster stage where you’ve given away his good pen, you know, you’ve got a good head. And that’s your opinion, it’s like a four pound pen, or something like that? Or was blue or Fontainebleau other code? You don’t want to get there. So since the kids exactly beginning of the school year, this is the coming year to have, you know, it may be you know, sorting trunks or maybe compasses or something like that. But you teach them exactly what it is. And you check them they’ve got it. It’s least for the first few weeks, like uniform checking equipment, check up on that. See, we got really well done, well done, we’re done. We’re done. Where’s your where’s your calculator, watch Craig, and our children. So expected of calculator watches. I used to live in Calgary to watch, you know, the boats in the boats. For example, and that’s the beginning of it, and then you check them up in it. And that’s, you know, the continuation of it. But suddenly, there’s something which I remember learning from, of all places, tgi fridays, right, which, as regular viewers of my football, no, summer, I spent a good few years after university because I studied philosophy. And then I’m one of the things they had they one of the mantras they had, there was actually really, really good. As a waiter, you were expected to have lots of pens. So they used to see minimum three pen, being up in it was minimum, three pens, and the mantra was, when to use what to lose and when to land. Right? It’s so cheesy, you could, you could, you could toast it, but But it’s good. It’s good. Because you know, one that one’s for you, one for somebody else in case they need it, because they need it. And then when in case your pen breaks, I just think it’s so convinced. You’ve got to have it. And if you’ve got that kind of behavioural habit, students, then be able to share that amongst one another, unless as a student, everyone particularly dislikes, and you have a backup plan. The backup plan is when you give up when somebody wants to pay and you say, Sure, we’ll keep this going. But teach them that they must ask immediately, they must ask him to do it. They’ll be held accountable for their actions again, right? So there’s a consequence for that. And then she’s like, Fine, I will help you there’s your purple pen. Make sure it’s like a purple pen so that as you do it three times in a row, for example, you can then make something of it. I wouldn’t, for instance, penalise somebody for once we get a pen, but I wouldn’t
have times a week or three times a month or something. And so you have to track it. So you sweat the small stuff which means not not necessarily lipping on them instantly. but noticing really attentively. And then when it comes to parenting that you can see, look purple pen, purple, and purple. And you can make the conversation point about. So there’s that, or you have a stock of pens yourself, but then you make sure it’s handed back in, or they give you a five p to pause or something like that. Or you teach children what to do, for instance, go to the school stationery store shop. The point is this, the exact strategy doesn’t matter. The point is, they are taught by just the expectation, but how to cope with not having it, they’re taught how to deal with disastrous circumstances.
Craig Barton 25:30
It’s really nice this time, and as you say, feeds back into the thinking you’ve spoken about already, you can imagine this, well, you’d hoped this would be part of the school policy, what to do with equipment. So again, even if you don’t necessarily agree with it as an individual teacher, within that policy, it feels like it’s important. I really like the idea of the purple pad. I’ve not thought of doing that. So you’re in because the problem is I’ve got into big rounds with kids, so they don’t have a pad on my way, and you got a pattern, the lessons taken away, it’s bubbling up. And I like the idea of okay, here’s a pan pot, it’s gonna be very obvious when you do your writing your book that I’ve lent you that banks, it’s going to stand out, and so on. I like that. So I’ve got the kind of I can follow that up later on. Without having to deal with it there in the moment that feels really important. Well, I like that. And bodies. It’s fascinating that it’s a controversial one. That’s I mean, we were both on Twitter, and we see it all kicking off all the time on Twitter, this
Tom Bennett 26:19
was kicks off, and it always kicks off over rubbish, who cares?
Craig Barton 26:24
Like equipment is always one, right. And then you can get you can get the extremes where you’re in a detention for forgetting your parent, and you get the other other extreme where it’s just a teacher just dishing out equipment left, right and centre. And it’s very easy to get kind of hung up on this. But I guess without putting words into your mouth, follow it following the school policy feels important. Try not to disrupt lesson time in the moment, but also having that kind of follow up. So so the kids kind of know what the rules are, and what are what would that be fair?
Tom Bennett 26:52
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can’t think of a job in the world where if you didn’t show up with what you do to bring that let you get away with it. I mean, there is a there’s a very real, there’s a real world real life ramifications or, or consequence of this, which is you got to teach children to be responsible for their own stuff. Now, I’ve taught teachers, in from Burkina Faso, I’ve taught teachers from, you know, Eastern Europe, in cultures where schools have got very, very little and you’d expect it to provide everything that you that you need. For the school nervous, I’m not wishing that as a state, I’m just saying that in situations where you know, you need it. And it’s important, people tend to value these things we tend to remember, or you tend to like use your pencil down to the stub because because it matters because you can’t just chuck a pencil away and say, haha, don’t have another pencil, you know, that’s your pencil for the month. And in situations where we value these things, we treat them as if they are important, and we change our behaviour accordingly.
Craig Barton 27:48
Okay, Tom, fifth and final tip, please painel tip, all I thought was
Tom Bennett 27:52
run a bit too late. Okay. And that gets a bit me gets a good one. Students need to, again, this is quite a broad one. But I quite like if you are in charge of the classroom, students need you to be in charge. That’s the tip right? Now I’m gonna unpack that. And that’s why I think it’s important. This is something which I think sometimes troubles newer teachers, but can also trouble teachers in general, which is that they often feel an uncertain relationship towards the right to run the room, as it were, no, there’s an excellent book out there called running of the room, which which is available for all good bookstores and bad bookstores. And it’s basically this idea that it’s your room, so therefore has to run in your rules. Children need an adult presence, they need an adult sense of authority in the room. And it’s, it’s your right to run the room. And they find it weird when you don’t say to take charge, they find it weird when teachers are, shall we say, far too democratic about the process of the classroom. And we hear this quite a lot, though, you know, you’ve got to get the children to agree to the rules, in order for them to participate in them. And I couldn’t, I couldn’t agree less. Couldn’t agree less, I don’t get to the police officer who stopped him for speeding, doesn’t wait for my consent, before I agree to submit to a parking fine, or a penalty, you know, a speeding fine or a penalty. And, you know, those are the rules. And when you make them malleable, and when you create a sense of, you know, if you really don’t want to do it, then you don’t have to do it, then most children will still behave. But sadly, a percentage of children will think oh, this is great. I you know, it’s my room. My rules is the land of do as you please. That shall be the whole of the law. And that’s that’s that disastrous thing to teach children who are developing an emergent sense of responsibility. Some kids, whether the four years old or 14 years old, are incredibly responsible. And you’d you could send them to the bank with your with your credit card and your PIN code and then come back with the exact money and without touching anything else, and other kids would be in Benetton before you know it. And the point is this As your you’re scaffolding responsibility for them, by showing them what they should do, until it becomes a habit. Now along the way, you persuade them as well, I’m not, I’m not saying just tell them when they should bodybuilder, you’re going to try and persuade them of why it matters, that you care about them, and that you want them to do well, and that they’re important. And that because you want them to succeed and flourish and be safe. These are the rules that we have to abide by, but we will be abiding by them. You know, there needs to be that sense of, you know, this isn’t a debate, I’m not discussing with you, I’m just, I’m just letting you know, and we can have a discussion about it. But that’s not gonna take us anywhere different. But I’m doing this because I care about you, because I’m a grown up, and I know what’s best for you. And, you know, I’ve said before, I’ve taking six farmers on trips to Jerusalem, and the West Bank, and stuff like that, can’t recommend that enough. And they need you to be a grown up, they still need you to be there. And you can sell it’s weird taking 17 year old and eight year olds, and even at that age, they’re like, you know, you’re the girl up here, what do we do, because because they’re insecure, they’re anxious, what to do next. So be the grown up, run the room and acknowledge the fact that it’s your right to run the room, but it’s also your responsibility to do so. And if you abdicate that responsibility, somebody else will run the room. And it will usually be a group of the strongest dominant personalities, which you’ll be very lucky if they’re also the nicest, kindest wise as students. So don’t abdicate the responsibility. Don’t give away. You know, I acknowledge that you need to take the reins of the classroom. And this is such a big point. And I know that this is quite a broad and what’s like more vague abstract point. But it’s such it’s such an important point for people taking over classrooms. I’ve seen endless pointless discussions about, you know, we’re gonna have a discussion about what the school rules are, or the classroom rules are, I just keep thinking to myself, are you a grown up? Do you not know what the rules need to be in your classroom? Because? Because if you don’t, then then don’t pretend. Don’t pretend you’re in charge, because you’re not. And that’s my fifth Top Tip.
Craig Barton 32:02
I like it’s just a one quick follow up to this, then a bonus question if as opposed to the follow up to this is does the obviously it’s always important that the the teachers they’re running the room and is the responsible one, does that change at all, throughout the course of the year as the teacher gets to know the class? Better? Does does that role change at all? And does it change with different age groups of students? Would the way this will be done with a year seven differ to say a year 13? Group?
Tom Bennett 32:31
That’s a great question, correct? I know that I will say that, but it’s a good question.
Yes, and no, you’re always the yes is that as you’ve scaffolded, the responsibilities that are expected to assume for themselves, like you know, turning up on time and having the right equipment, then doing their best and being kind to one another and not laughing. If someone gets it wrong. As you scaffold these things, as you start to see it become a habit, you can then take a step back in terms of constantly holding them accountable, you can, you know, you can, you can turn down the constant reminders, you can turn down the, you know, the cues that you give people to do this behaviour, because you notice that doing automatically. But if they stopped doing it, and they said, You’ll never be able to completely advocate that, you know, you’ll always have to remind them occasionally, this is what we should be doing. And so you can take a step back. And the joy of that, then is that you walk into someone’s classroom, who’s at that point where the students and the kids will just be behaving and you’re thinking, what are they doing? But what if the teacher is just doing nothing, the teachers just, you know, ask them to do stuff, and they do it or not even asking them into it. And the point, of course there is that it’s been habituated and the kids have been socialised. And they also probably value the behaviour. And they also know what will happen if they don’t do it. And there’s this wonderful kind of cultural assumption. But you never give up the right to see, right, this isn’t working. You never go to the right to see route, notice you’re not doing what I needed to do. And that’s causing you a problem because you can’t learn and you’re not safe. And we can’t be in as we can’t have as much dignity in this classroom. So therefore, I’m going to step back up again, as I said, it would if this happened, so you’re always under the auspices of the teachers authority. But but you can, of course, take a step back as they become more autonomous, which often six forms can be, especially if they’ve been with you for several years, but you never take the foot off the pedal and never take your hands off the wheel.
Craig Barton 34:22
Fantastic. And here’s your bonus question. So this is what I was interested in is, is obviously, when teachers are within a school, they’re often SLT will order in kind of external CPD, and so on. And it always frustrates me a little bit because there’s often real good expertise within the school itself. And it’s often the case that teachers just don’t get chance to go in each other’s rooms and learn from each other. But in terms of behaviour, just to go back on something you said there, there’s real danger isn’t that you as a novice teacher who’s struggling with behaviour go into a room to watch an experienced teacher, how they’re controlling this class, and it’s visible what’s going on because they just seem to be teaching as normal, but the kids aren’t playing up or acting or anything like that. And it’s because these rules and routines have been established and so on. So I guess my question, my bonus question is, if you’re a teacher in a school wanting to learn from colleagues, how to get better in terms of behaviour, how do you go about that? Is it worth watching more experienced teachers or not?
Tom Bennett 35:23
That’s okay. Very decent bonus question there. And you know, I could talk about this all day, right? Let’s see at the edge of the grand old age of 50, which I am, I know don’t look at 49 movie, if I decided, You know what, I want to become a belly dancer. I think was the was the was a meal ballerina, a belly dancer, belly dancer. I don’t want to go in that capability. But let’s say I wanted to be valid. And what I wouldn’t do is go to the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden and buy tickets to see Darcy bustles revival of Swan Lake and watch her and go. Got it that’s, I’ll do that I’ll do that are in the same way for what to become? The next. Zola birds or somebody? But there’s an old reference for somebody that I think you know, more recently, I don’t know many marathon runners have a long distance runner. I wouldn’t just you know, watch a marathon runner and go, Ah, I get it. No. You just run for 26.1 miles. If you wanted to get better at something, I wouldn’t watch an expert unless the expert was sufficiently versed in teaching the process and breaking them down. And it’s why I mean, I was family since I was very good at Beaver management in school, but no better than many other people. Right? No, you’re no better than a decent teacher, a beaver management. And once I’d had a class for four or five years. So if someone said, can I come along and watch your lesson for what you do better management? I would say no, no, because I’ve had this class for five years. And they all just behave because they know what to do. And we’ve got a really good relationship. And that relationship is the outcome of all of these structured processes that we’ve laid down like train tracks for five, six years. You know, this is this is this is not an act of of a moment. Go see a really good teacher who’s taking over a new class. That’s what to do. Because a bit like the Lloyds building in London or anything of that building. It was a Norman Foster or Richard Rogers designed to have all of its outsides of its insides on the outside. So all of its service hatches and lifts and so on others gubbins the guts, outside the building, it’s quite an interesting building to see. And you want to see, you want to see the engine running with with the car. But often, rather than just watch the Ferrari race pasture, I do dumbstruck by what’s actually happened. If you want to know what’s happening, stop the car and lift up the bonnet. This metaphor is getting too complicated. And but because if you use a mechanic at this point, but yeah, so watch a great teacher with a new class. And before you do that, get them to tell you what they’re going to do with this new class, how do they lay these train tracks down, this is what I’m going to tell them to do. And this is what we’ll do if we don’t do it. And this is what we’re going to see. And here’s how I’m going to react. And that’s it. That’s the skeleton, that’s the architecture that’s, that’s, that’s the, you know that that’s the iron mungry behind the architecture. And that’s a really good thing to do, and then have a conversation afterwards. And if you can, and I’m really pushing the ball here, but you know, we’re talking about optimal situations, you film that situation, and playback little clips, with your novice and with your expert together in a collegial conversation of mutual respect, and say, This is what I was doing. And let the novice see why did you do that? And have that explanation to have that discussion. And that’s the best way to learn about it. But you’ve got to have a focus you gotta have a target don’t just watch dumbstruck as magnificence is performed in front of you. Otherwise, I mean, I’m gonna go see Darren brown next week. I can’t wait. I do like that. And Brown. I didn’t even see him in show. You know, I can’t watch him go I don’t know how to do it. Because I’ve seen somebody do it. It’s just like that. It’s all going on. You know, behind the curtain.
Craig Barton 39:19
Lovely that time Well, that’s five fantastic tips on a bonus. So loads of metaphors on that one so you can have deep was no it was deep. I like I like it. Let me hand over to Tom. And anything you want to plug anything you’d recommend listeners listeners, check out what Nope, nothing at
Tom Bennett 39:33
all. I’m not a whore. I did this for the good of the community. And there’s nothing I want to plug Craig Barton.
Craig Barton 39:41
Well, that’s very first first one and then we’ve had That’s brilliant. That’s brilliant. That’s, well, I’ll put links anyway to all your stuff in the show notes. But somebody it’s always Always a pleasure speaking to you. Thanks so much for Jason’s
Tom Bennett 39:56
Joy Craig, good luck to you. I hope you do. Well. You’re Your podcast is really coming on cheers
Transcribed by https://otter.ai